Masters in Mathematical Physics at LMU TUM or Hamburg?

[curious_mind]

I am very interested in theoretical and mathematical physics. I am not though from IITs but one of NITs in India - doing msc physics. My CGPA in MSc Physics till 3rd sem is 8.63/10 (to convert in german system, its like 1.8 or something) with top most grades possible in fundamental subjects like Classical Mech, Electromagnetics, Quantum Mechanics, Thermodynamics and Mathematical Physics. My masters thesis supervisor is also theoretical physicist. In my current institute we have fair amount of people in theoretical physics.

However, my 3rd semester went bad because of certain reasons like things were not taught up to the mark and very shallowly things were taught, So I was very frustrated troughout the semster and also Lab courses were pain because everything was just feeling like formality.
Consequently I have C grade in condensed matter physics and laser Physics, B grade in nuclear and particle physics, and including D grade in general relativity, which i liked the most but I simply had no time to focus on the way I wanted to learn it - I felt it was just mugging up formulas and doing calculations - I mean no focus on equivalence principle etc, so I just screwed up.
Also some management department elective I was hardly able to pass with the lowest possible grade , which ended up my current cgpa down to 8.63/10 ( ~between 1.8 to 1.9 out of 4 in german system)

I want to do masters again, in germany, if its fesible (because I heard many people going there and its bit economical too.) Because my current masters has no specialization at all. It is like all general physics is covered with no particular focus on anything. Also in my country, we have to write these MCQ tests like NET, GATE and others to enter into good reputed researh institutes like TIFR, IISc etc. There also I am not performin good enough to get interview call from these instituitions. In India, nobody looks at CGPA if you have top scores in these tests, that was also one of reasons I did not pay much attention to cgpa in third year. I dont want to do my phd from IITs. My masters thesis advisor also told me to apply outside countries for PhD as well as masters, if I can. So I was looking for some options.


I am now also thinking of backup plan in AI/ML , I dont know how smooth it will be for me and how do I cover up things. I am very sad about it...


I also have publication. Previously did engineering in Information Tech. So I am quite an old guy. 26 yrs old. So, should I apply ? (Because phd will also be 1.5 years shorter in europe compared to india/US even if I complete masters from there lately, thats why thinking) Probably it will be around 8.8 or 8.9 CGPA at the end of msc. What are procedures for applying for scholarship i.e. DAAD or any others. Do I have fair chance ? Without scholarship I am sure, I cannot finance myself. Can anyone guide ?

Is it true that most universities in germany for masters only look for grades first ? Will my chances hamper if particular one semester did not go well even if my SOP, CV, LOR , Research experience are fine ?
I looked at some universities out of which I found msc in mathematical physics at LMU or university of hamburg very attractive curriculum. Does anyone have experience applying there or knowledge of their shortisting/selection criteria.

Thanks.

 

[gentzen]

I also have publication. Previously did engineering in Information Tech. So I am quite an old guy. 26 yrs old. So, should I apply ? (Because phd will also be 1.5 years shorter in europe compared to india/US even if I complete masters from there lately, thats why thinking)

PhD in Germany is often not quick, and a PhD in physics is no exception.

which I found msc in mathematical physics at … very attractive curriculum

If this is the reason why you apply for msc, write it. Certainly a better reason than implying a PhD in Germany would be short and easy.

Does anyone have experience applying there or knowledge of their shortisting/selection criteria.

Well, 25 years ago, they would have looked at your individual case, tried to guess whether you have unrealistic expectations, or whether there are other reasons why you would likely fail. They would have asked you to write a motivation letter with 400-800 words, but often still tried to talk to you directly to better judge your chances. As you are from India, at least English won‘t be your main challenge (which often was a main hurdle for Chinese students).

(Edit: Make sure to look at the deadlines. This is Germany, and any missed deadlines are an instant showstopper here.)

 

[curious_mind]

Hi ! Really Thank you, for your reply.

PhD in Germany is often not quick, and a PhD in physics is no exception.

. Certainly a better reason than implying a PhD in Germany would be short and easy.

I never tried to say that - since it is short, it would be easy. I was trying to say, since it is a short duration, it would probably be very difficult for me, as my master's program is very generic with no emphasis on any particular area at all. In fact, suppose I liked mathematical physics and other fundamental subjects - and if I try to focus only on that , then I will lose CGPA due to other semi-specialized courses like laser physics, electronics and other experimental lab courses - which in my opinion, at my instituition was extremely mediocre and was just fort the sake of formality with no directions, that's why I didn't focus much beyond some extent, that's why my cgpa is little bit on lower side.

Since I like theoretical physics like QFT, string theory(i know I can't be taken serious when I say right now these things - but at least I want to be in some place where I can at least initialize seriousness of these things ) and other hep-th and condensed matter theory topics..

I also have publication. Previously did engineering in Information Tech. So I am quite an old guy. 26 yrs old. So, should I apply ? (Because phd will also be 1.5 years shorter in europe compared to india/US even if I complete masters from there lately, thats why thinking)

I was trying to say, if suppose, I get into PhD in India, then anyway it will take 5 years. If I do second masters in European countries which are economical, then it will take 2 years and and then 3.5 or 4 years of PhD. Ultimately I will not lose many years by doing second masters, so should I apply for second masters ? That was the question. Second factor is like, as I described above, I have no specialized knowledge of anything in masters - apart from little bit in what I have done in my masters thesis project.

 

[gentzen]

If I do second masters in European countries which are economical, then it will take 2 years and and then 3.5 or 4 years of PhD.

The 3.5 years might work in France. It doesn't seem to work in Germany, at least not for the people from Germany which I happen to know. And I know quite a few. Yes, the grants or (poorly) paid PhD positions are for 3.5 years. But that just means that you will have to look for other sources of income after that. Or decide to stop your PhD. It certainly doesn't mean that most PhDs in Germany are finished after 3.5 years.

Ultimately I will not lose many years by doing second masters, so should I apply for second masters ? That was the question.

If you only apply for (second) masters because your ultimate goal is to do a PhD, then you might risk to waste your time unnecessarily. On the other hand, if you do see independent value in the (second) masters, and see the possibility to maybe do a PhD later just as an additional bonus, then it could make sense.

 

[curious_mind]

If you only apply for (second) masters because your ultimate goal is to do a PhD, then you might risk to waste your time unnecessarily. On the other hand, if you do see independent value in the (second) masters, and see the possibility to maybe do a PhD later just as an additional bonus, then it could make sense

Yes that's true but what if the PhD positions I'm looking for requires certain background, for example, theoretical physics they require background in QFT, knowledge of dynamical systems etc and some places string theory also.. so as I said my masters don't have any such background. It was very generic and not specialised in any specific subjects so that's why I am confused. More than time waste or anything, it is about Background knowledge...

Yes, the grants or (poorly) paid PhD positions are for 3.5 years. But that just means that you will have to look for other sources of income after that. Or decide to stop your PhD. It certainly doesn't mean that most PhDs in Germany are finished after 3.5 years.

Oh, okay !

 

[gwnorth]

I am very interested in theoretical and mathematical physics.

doing msc physics

Previously did engineering in Information Tech.

I am now also thinking of backup plan in AI/ML

My masters thesis advisor also told me to apply outside countries for PhD

Op what's your end goal here? You've gone from Engineering/IT to Theoretical Physics and then potentially on to AI/ML. You've done poorly in your master's and now want to do another one. Why do you want to do a PhD and what are you hoping to do with it?

Also if you do decide to do a second master's might I suggest that you need to revise your view of your role in your education. As a graduate student doing poorly in your courses because

things were not taught up to the mark and very shallowly things were taught, So I was very frustrated troughout the semster and also Lab courses were pain because everything was just feeling like formality.

is really not a valid excuse. As an aspiring research scientist, you should be able to be proactive in finding whatever resources you need to ensure you learn what you need to learn. "I had a bad teacher" might fly as a first year undergrad, but certainly not as a grad student. Also being able to persevere when what you're working on seems boring and routine is going to be a key ability if you're going to be successful. Not everything you learn or work on is going to be exciting all the time. Sometimes you just need to slog through it. This will be even more crucial as a PhD student.

 

[curious_mind]

You've done poorly in your master's and now want to do another one

Is 8.62/10 really poor performance ? In german universities, will not it count if I have topped fundamental courses like Classical Mech, Quantum Mech, Stat Mech, Electrodynamics and Math Physics ? In my department nobody told me I performed poorly.

The reason I mentioned about AI/ML is that it is my second choice if I dont get any better grad school.

I am not thinking for second masters because my masters went poor. The reason is, as I mentioned, there is no specialization on anything. I am sure my department professors will also agree what I have written that there is no specialization. Like, If I am interested hep-th, in europe they expect substantial amount of knowledge of mathematical and theoretical physics and my current masters has no specialization at all.

Why do you want to do a PhD and what are you hoping to do with it?

Of course I want to get involved into some challenging problem and get some hands dirty into abstract mathematics. I know this is very vague take at the moment, but let me see how it goes. I have some qualitative knowledge about String theory and what challenges it faces, but I have not got time to learn tools required to get work in it. Taking specialized course, I hope to get some training in it. PhD and all, I will see. I know poor job prospects and all, but I am not yet even part of system ! Anyway , my backup plan will be AI/ML.

I suggest that you need to revise your view of your role in your education

Agreed. I want to get experiment few more years before I really have to make financially stable career.

 

[gwnorth]

Is 8.62/10 really poor performance ?

Are you really sure about that cGPA? An 8.62/10 is about a 3.45/4.0 or about a B+, but given that in many graduate programs any grade below a B- would be considered a fail, I'm not sure that your conversion is accurate.

In any case to be honest my bigger concern is that

I want to get involved into some challenging problem and get some hands dirty into abstract mathematics.

and

I want to get experiment few more years before I really have to make financially stable career.

is as you say a "very vague take". You seem to be driven by some kind of romantic vision of what doing a PhD and working in the field of scientific research looks like. Often times it's going to be very boring and repetitive work. You'll be required to take the initiative to teach yourself new concepts that you aren't familiar with. No one is going to be holding your hand and leading you through the process. If you also lack motivation when you find the work less than stimulating (which is the reality of most of the time in science), then you're unlikely to be successful, especially when your goal is as vague as "doing research on some challenging problem".

 

[mad mathematician]

I am very interested in theoretical and mathematical physics. I am not though from IITs but one of NITs in India - doing msc physics. My CGPA in MSc Physics till 3rd sem is 8.63/10 (to convert in german system, its like 1.8 or something) with top most grades possible in fundamental subjects like Classical Mech, Electromagnetics, Quantum Mechanics, Thermodynamics and Mathematical Physics. My masters thesis supervisor is also theoretical physicist. In my current institute we have fair amount of people in theoretical physics.

However, my 3rd semester went bad because of certain reasons like things were not taught up to the mark and very shallowly things were taught, So I was very frustrated troughout the semster and also Lab courses were pain because everything was just feeling like formality.
Consequently I have C grade in condensed matter physics and laser Physics, B grade in nuclear and particle physics, and including D grade in general relativity, which i liked the most but I simply had no time to focus on the way I wanted to learn it - I felt it was just mugging up formulas and doing calculations - I mean no focus on equivalence principle etc, so I just screwed up.
Also some management department elective I was hardly able to pass with the lowest possible grade , which ended up my current cgpa down to 8.63/10 ( ~between 1.8 to 1.9 out of 4 in german system)

I want to do masters again, in germany, if its fesible (because I heard many people going there and its bit economical too.) Because my current masters has no specialization at all. It is like all general physics is covered with no particular focus on anything. Also in my country, we have to write these MCQ tests like NET, GATE and others to enter into good reputed researh institutes like TIFR, IISc etc. There also I am not performin good enough to get interview call from these instituitions. In India, nobody looks at CGPA if you have top scores in these tests, that was also one of reasons I did not pay much attention to cgpa in third year. I dont want to do my phd from IITs. My masters thesis advisor also told me to apply outside countries for PhD as well as masters, if I can. So I was looking for some options.


I am now also thinking of backup plan in AI/ML , I dont know how smooth it will be for me and how do I cover up things. I am very sad about it...


I also have publication. Previously did engineering in Information Tech. So I am quite an old guy. 26 yrs old. So, should I apply ? (Because phd will also be 1.5 years shorter in europe compared to india/US even if I complete masters from there lately, thats why thinking) Probably it will be around 8.8 or 8.9 CGPA at the end of msc. What are procedures for applying for scholarship i.e. DAAD or any others. Do I have fair chance ? Without scholarship I am sure, I cannot finance myself. Can anyone guide ?

Is it true that most universities in germany for masters only look for grades first ? Will my chances hamper if particular one semester did not go well even if my SOP, CV, LOR , Research experience are fine ?
I looked at some universities out of which I found msc in mathematical physics at LMU or university of hamburg very attractive curriculum. Does anyone have experience applying there or knowledge of their shortisting/selection criteria.

Thanks.

26 is old? then I must be an old red hair geezer...

 

[curious_mind]

You seem to be driven by some kind of romantic vision of what doing a PhD and working in the field of scientific research looks like

Maybe to some extent. But I dont think it is completely true. As I already mentioned, Earlier, I had publication where I worked on calculations and now also working on masters thesis. In both the cases my supervisor seem happy with me. Does not it indicate I dont have that level of ignorance ?



I have more specific reasons to apply, but I am not writing my SOP here.(But still it will contain some statements like I got know this topic by doing internship here, reading this and that and motivated learn/work on this... other than that I dont know how for a masters program, more specific I can write) The reason I asked question here is regarding mediocre cgpa, as you say, 3.45 out of 4 is considered "poor" according to you. Also, again I am asking, will not it be considered if I have topped in some fundamental courses ? Physics department people don't care if I have topped fundamental courses especially when I am applying for Mathematical and Theoretical Physics? Yes, its true that in other courses, I have not done well. It is not that I have performed mediocre in every courses I taken. Only one semester performance was bad.
TIll first two semester, I had cgpa of 9.1 and it could be 9.4/9.5 if I did not have one management course... will physics dept people care how did I perform in some nonrelavent course ? In my country for example, if I am looking for job , nobody cares if I have >8.5 CGPA, at least 3 profs told me. That is also one of reasons I have not paid extra effort to improve cgpa. Will this circumstances not matter ?
Will having publication and some specific things in SOP increase my chances. Or still it is not a good looking profile ?

You'll be required to take the initiative to teach yourself new concepts that you aren't familiar with. No one is going to be holding your hand and leading you through the process

Of course I understand that. I self learnt many things, but it has its advantages and limitations. If everything could have been self-learnt and done why people would collaborate. Anyone will be doing well paid job and self learn things whatever they liked. No universities would have been required, no phd would have been required. From my experience, day to day interactions with fellow physics people helps , and sometimes even blabbering helps.. ((and even blaberring over this platform also helps sometime :) ))

 

[curious_mind]

26 is old? then I must be an old red hair geezer...

But are you still studying?!

Anyway, There are many age based bureaucracy in my country, according to that this is quite older.. like one cant become assistant prof if someone is >35 years of age & cant get some particular fellowships if you are >30 etc etc... Does happen at other countries also ?

 

[mad mathematician]

But are you still studying?!

Anyway, There are many age based bureaucracy in my country, according to that this is quite older.. like one cant become assistant prof if someone is >35 years of age & cant get some particular fellowships if you are >30 etc etc... Does happen at other countries also ?

If your brain is as fresh of accepting new ideas just it was in your teens, then I don't think age should be a problem in learning new stuff in maths and physics.
The age problem as you said is just for money reasons.
I am not sure I am the man to ask for grants; too much beaurcratic and political stuff to do. I much prefer of actually doing the maths and physics. Time is too short anyways so enjoy whatever you enjoy doing, there's no dream job; because any job has tasks to be done, which are mandatory; if you enjoy them then good for you, but they are still regarded as chores.
Either way you'll get a good job from an MSc education, since not everyone can have good grades and an aptitude to learning these technical stuff, remember that!

 

[curious_mind]

Either way you'll get a good job from an MSc education, since not everyone can have good grades and an aptitude to learning these technical stuff, remember that!

You are generically saying or saying that I may not have secured good grades ! Just curious...

 

[gwnorth]

as you say, 3.45 out of 4 is considered "poor" according to you.

I said, I question whether your cGPA calculation is correct but my reference to you doing poorly in your master's was more related to the red flag of you not being able to succeed when you faced less than optimal teaching conditions. Whether or not your cGPA will be sufficient to apply to another master's program will depend on the specific program. A student with a previous master's degree will be held to a higher standard than a student applying from undergrad.

I am asking, will not it be considered if I have topped in some fundamental courses ?

I'm going to have to go by context here regarding your use of the word "topped". That's not an application of the word I'm familiar with. If you mean "not done well", it's certainly not going to look good. They probably aren't going to care how you did in an elective business course, but they are probably going to care that you struggled with Condensed Matter and Laser Physics and General Relativity. As I mentioned previously for some more selective master's programs, anything below a B- is considered a fail. You can try to mitigate this in your personal statement but "my professors were poor teachers" is probably not going to be considered to be as valid excuse from a graduate student.

Will having publication and some specific things in SOP increase my chances. Or still it is not a good looking profile ?

Was your publication relevant to your master's research? If so it could be helpful (it will also depend on the calibre of journal that it was published in). Either way it can speak to your ability to do research, as will your master's thesis. This can help to mitigate your transcript.

If everything could have been self-learnt and done why people would collaborate. Anyone will be doing well paid job and self learn things whatever they liked. No universities would have been required, no phd would have been required.

Graduate students are held to a higher standard. You didn't have to self-teach yourself (though you should be capable of doing this to a large degree), but you blaming poor instruction for the reason you did not do well in a course speaks to your lack of initiative in seeking out additional resources that would have been of benefit to you. I wouldn't even accept that argument from a senior undergrad. The whole point of a university education is to teach you to be able to teach yourself. If your professors are not doing a good job, find someone else or additional resources. You need to a proactive participant in your learning.

In any case the upshot of all this is that you should apply but no one can really tell you if you will be successful.