Mathematically expressing field driven water autoionization

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the mathematical expression of water autoionization driven by an electric field, specifically exploring the application of the Laplace equation and the Poisson equation in this context. Participants are interested in how these equations can be adapted for different geometries, such as a hemispherical tip versus parallel plates, and the implications for calculating electric fields necessary for ionization.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks assistance with applying the Laplace equation to solve for voltage in the context of electric field-driven water autoionization.
  • Another participant suggests that the Poisson equation will be relevant, noting that boundary conditions will differ based on the geometry (hemispherical tip vs. parallel plates).
  • A participant expresses uncertainty about specific variables and their roles in the equations, particularly regarding the electric field required for ionization and comparisons to Paschen's Law.
  • Concerns are raised about the background knowledge required to tackle the problem, with one participant indicating a lack of familiarity with certain mathematical concepts, such as second derivatives.
  • There is a suggestion that numerical methods may be necessary to solve the equations, especially if the functional form for the permittivity as a function of electric field is complex.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and familiarity with the mathematical concepts involved. There is no consensus on the specific approach to take or the level of background knowledge required, indicating a range of perspectives and uncertainties in the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the absence of certain variables in provided images, which may affect the clarity of the discussion. There is also mention of the need for a solid foundation in calculus and vectors before engaging with the topic of electromagnetism.

HelloCthulhu
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I recently read a paper on using an electric field to drive water autoionizaton. I'm trying to figure out how to use the Laplace equation on pg 9; 4th paragraph; to solve for voltage. I'm also interested in how this equation would change if I replaced the hemispherical tip with a parallel plate. Anyone strongly familiar with this subject matter? Any help is greatly appreciated!
fig 6.png
maths.png
data.png


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0009261411011511
 
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I haven’t run through the math specifically, but it’ll be the Poisson equation no matter what, but the boundary conditions will change. So for parallel plates, you’ll want to look at the Laplacian in Cartesian coordinates instead of spherical coordinates as your starting point.
 
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Thank you for the response! I still have some questions about the variables. I know how to use Figure 6 to find the values for maximum interfacial field Ew/v or Et/w and water thickness rw/rt, but I'm still not sure what to do with (E), d, or how to solve for ϕw or ϕv.

maths 2.png


In the end, all I'm really trying to figure out is what the electric the field between the molecules and the electrode has to be in order to cause water to ionize. Some of the fundamentals seem comparative to Paschen's Law (Electric Field = voltage x distance). As for adjusting that equation for parallel plates I think I've found an explanation on what it should look like, but I'm still far too ignorant about electrostatics for it to make any real sense to me yet. Thank you for your input so far, I hope you can continue to help me with this.

http://jsa.ece.illinois.edu/ece329/notes/329lect07.pdf
 
It’s unclear how much background knowledge you have and if this problem is at the right level for you. For instance, I don’t see a ##d## being used as a variable in any of these images. The only ##d##’s I see denote derivatives.

To get the potential (aka the voltage), you would solve the Poisson/Laplace equation for ##\phi##, given the appropriate boundary conditions. I doubt there’s an analytical way to do it without a really simple functional form for ##\epsilon(E)##, but it should be possible to write a code to get a numerical solution. To get the electric field, you take the gradient of the potential (assuming the system is time-invariant).
 
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TeethWhitener said:
It’s unclear how much background knowledge you have and if this problem is at the right level for you. For instance, I don’t see a d being used as a variable in any of these images. The only d’s I see denote derivatives.
It's far beyond anything I have experience with. I've solved derivatives in the past, but wasn't familiar with second derivatives. To be honest, I'm in way over my head on these subjects. But even so I'd like to keep working on trying to understand them. Thank you so much for your help.
 
HelloCthulhu said:
It's far beyond anything I have experience with. I've solved derivatives in the past, but wasn't familiar with second derivatives. To be honest, I'm in way over my head on these subjects. But even so I'd like to keep working on trying to understand them. Thank you so much for your help.
I would advise you to learn single and multivariable calculus as well as vectors before trying to tackle E&M.
 
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