Mathematics: A Key to Understanding Metaphysics?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between mathematics and metaphysics, exploring whether mathematical concepts can aid in understanding metaphysical questions. Participants express interest in the relevance of mathematics to metaphysical inquiries and seek recommendations for resources that bridge these fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that mathematical concepts, such as infinity, are relevant to metaphysical discussions.
  • Books on logic and set theory are proposed as useful resources for understanding metaphysics.
  • There is a debate about the definition of metaphysics, with some asserting it is the study of fundamental aspects of the universe, while others argue it is more about the nature of physics itself.
  • Participants express uncertainty about the definitions of metaphysics, noting that different authors may interpret it differently.
  • Some contributions highlight the distinction between physics and metaphysics, emphasizing that physical theories can be tested while metaphysical questions may not have definitive answers.
  • References to historical figures like Descartes and their arguments about the existence of God are discussed, with some participants questioning the validity of these proofs.
  • There is a cautionary note about the appropriateness of discussing philosophy within the forum, with some participants acknowledging the potential for the thread to be closed by administrators.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the definitions and implications of metaphysics, and multiple competing views remain regarding its relationship with mathematics and physics.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty about the definitions of metaphysics and its scope, indicating that there may be limitations in how these concepts are understood across different contexts.

VCrakeV
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Metaphysics is a strong interest of mine, as is Philosophy in general. I also enjoy Math, and more importantly, I recognize some mathematical concepts are needed for Metaphysics. A simple example is the concept of infinity (what it is).

I'm asking, are there any courses, or even books on Mathematics I should look into for the sake of Metaphysics? Or even ones I might find of interest (as a Philosophy student)?
 
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What is metaphysics?
 
Books on logic and / or set theory come to mind. And Popper and Wittgenstein on the philosophers' side.
 
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Student100 said:
What is metaphysics?
Literally "before physics"; the study of the fundamental things of the Universe. Not a perfect definition, but it's okay...

Some common themes of Metaphysics are "is there a God?", "is life deterministic?", and "what is?"
 
VCrakeV said:
Literally "before physics"; the study of the fundamental things of the Universe. Not a perfect definition, but it's okay...

Some common themes of Metaphysics are "is there a God?", "is life deterministic?", and "what is?"
Not quite sure whether it can be said in this way. It's rather an "after", than a "before".
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=metaphysics
Also the Wikipedia definitions and descriptions in English and in my language are not one-to-one.

I like to see it as: Physics is about the real world's constituencies. Metaphysics is about the nature of physics, i.e. about it's methods and models. One can add prefixes of meta- to indicate the next level, which is discussing the former.

To add an important hint here: We do not discuss philosophy on PF. So this thread is very much on the edge and might get closed by the administrators.
 
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fresh_42 said:
Not quite sure whether it can be said in this way. It's rather an "after", than a "before".
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=metaphysics
Also the Wikipedia definitions and descriptions in English and in my language are not one-to-one.

I like to see it as: Physics is about the real world's constituencies. Metaphysics is about the nature of physics, i.e. about it's methods and models. One can add prefixes of meta- to indicate the next level, which is discussing the former.

To add an important hint here: We do not discuss philosophy on PF. So this thread is very much on the edge and might get closed by the administrators.
My bad... I always thought it was before (as in, metaphysics comes before physics; it is the basis of physics, not vice versa).

And sorry about that, I was thinking it was more a topic about Math, but I understand.
 
VCrakeV said:
My bad... I always thought it was before (as in, metaphysics comes before physics; it is the basis of physics, not vice versa).
I guess there isn't really one unique definition and assume that different authors use it slightly differently.
And sorry about that, I was thinking it was more a topic about Math, but I understand.
Yes, it can be. As I said, e.g. in set theory and logic. Goedel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel's_incompleteness_theorems) and Russell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_paradox) count as mathematicians. It is a thin line here between them. And it's not that mathematicians or physicists weren't interested in philosophy or wouldn't discuss it. Most of them are Platonists. It's more that internet debates on philosophical questions usually lead to nowhere and can go on forever without any significant gain. That's all. I've read discussions like "Is zero real" or similar here, which I thought would have been immediately closed. I simply wanted to say it, in order to stay on the safe side.
 
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As fresh_42 said,
fresh_42 said:
We do not discuss philosophy on PF.
 
  • #11
VCrakeV said:
Literally "before physics"; the study of the fundamental things of the Universe. Not a perfect definition, but it's okay...

Some common themes of Metaphysics are "is there a God?", "is life deterministic?", and "what is?"

I thought Descartes already proved there was a God?
 
  • #12
PeroK said:
I thought Descartes already proved there was a God?
I like Hardy's version:
fresh_42 said:
It is not quite clear whether Hardy believed in God or was just superstitious. However, in any case he believed God will do everything to make his life tough and complicated. One day he was on a journey back home. (I've heard it with Harald Bohr and Copenhagen, but also found Norway in the internet.) Anyway. He had to take a ship and the boat he got didn't look very trustful. Typically, he thought, why me?
So he sent a postcard before boarding - say to Bohr - claiming he has found the proof of Riemann's hypothesis.
When afterwards asked why, he replied: "Well, if the ship sank the proof would have been lost but I would have become the most famous mathematician of my generation. God won't allow this to happen. This way I only had to write Bohr another postcard in which I stated to have made a mistake."
 
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  • #13
fresh_42 said:
I like Hardy's version:

Although, I'm sure it's not beyond God's power to disrupt the postal service and make a card go missing. He does that all the time, as far as I can judge.
 
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  • #14
PeroK said:
I thought Descartes already proved there was a God?
Supposedly, but it's often not regarded as a proof. Even at the time of publishment, Antoine Arnauld criticized Descartes for his circular reasoning in God and the truth rule.
 
  • #15
Damn, we are getting off topic...
 
  • #16
VCrakeV said:
Supposedly, but it's often not regarded as a proof. Even at the time of publishment, Antoine Arnauld criticized Descartes for his circular reasoning in God and the truth rule.
This list of "proofs" reads like a who-is-who in philosophy.
 
  • #17
VCrakeV said:
Supposedly, but it's often not regarded as a proof. Even at the time of publishment, Antoine Arnauld criticized Descartes for his circular reasoning in God and the truth rule.

This exemplifies the difference between physics and metaphysics. Any physical theory or postulate can be tested and - agreeing with experimental results is a key test. Arguing whether God exists may be useful in its own way, but unless and until he/she reveals him/herself, there's never going to be an answer.

I might argue that man cannot be made in God's image, because why wouild God need eyes, ears, ribs, a heart, liver and kidneys etc.? But, unless I can medically examine God, there's no way to tell whether he/she has kidneys or not. All I can say is that it seems unlikely to me! But, there is no definite way to resolve that question. A believer would have an answer, no doubt. Possibly simply redefine what is meant by "in God's image", and then you're back to square one.
 
  • #18
fresh_42 said:
To add an important hint here: We do not discuss philosophy on PF. So this thread is very much on the edge and might get closed by the administrators.
Done. Lordy.
 

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