Maxwell's equations hidden in Dirac's equation?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between the Dirac equation and Maxwell's equations, particularly whether Maxwell's equations can be derived from the Dirac equation. Participants explore the implications of U(1) phase symmetry in the context of quantum field theory and gauge theories, examining the interactions between Dirac particles and electromagnetic fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the Dirac equation implies a complete description of interactions between Dirac particles, potentially leading to Maxwell's equations through U(1) phase symmetry.
  • Others argue that gauging the U(1) symmetry is necessary to describe electromagnetic interactions, indicating that without this gauge, no electromagnetic interaction occurs between the particles.
  • A participant notes the concept of "minimal coupling" as described in Michele Maggiore's quantum field theory text, which relates to the interaction between matter fields and gauge fields.
  • There is a request for resources focusing on how gauge theories arise from matter fields rather than solely on gauge fields themselves, highlighting a desire for a deeper understanding of classical field interactions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying interpretations of the relationship between the Dirac equation and Maxwell's equations, with no consensus reached on whether Maxwell's equations can be directly derived from the Dirac equation. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of U(1) symmetry and the nature of interactions between fields.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention limitations in existing literature, particularly regarding the focus on gauge fields rather than the interactions arising from matter fields. There is also an acknowledgment of the complexity involved in transitioning from classical to quantum field theories.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying quantum field theory, gauge theories, and the foundational aspects of particle interactions, particularly in the context of electromagnetic theory and relativistic quantum mechanics.

jjustinn
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The first thing you learn about the Dirac equation is that it provides a relativistically-correct quantum-mechanical description of spin-1/2 charged particles, e.g. the electron.

Then, it seems that it's at least implied that the Dirac equation completely describes the interaction between multiple Dirac particles (e.g. electron-electron)...

However, I don't think I've ever seen it spelled out explicitly like this (from Houghty - Lagrangian Interaction):

In its application to the U(1) phase symmetry of [Dirac particles] one finds that the mediating field of the interaction ... is precisely the one described by Maxwell's equations. The fact that the interaction is mediated by only one real vector field, whose quantized particle is the photon, is a consequence of there being only one real parameter (the phase angle) in the global symmetry group.

So am I reading that correctly? Do the Maxwell equations literally follow from the Dirac equation? I've seen them put together in coupled equations of motion (e.g. the Dirac current = source for Maxwell field, Maxwell field = external potential for Dirac field), but I always took those as empirical rather than necessary deductive fact...
 
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It indeed appears that way. The so-called classical fields which take values in a complex vector space (complex scalar field), or generally in an involuted Grassmann algebra over the reals (the Dirac fields) have the U(1) / phase symmetry built in. Gauging this symmetry with the purpose of describing possible interactions leads to the existence of a theory of U(1)-valued 1-forms which are interpreted as the potentials for a free e-m field. Not gauging the global symmetry, well no e-m interaction between the scalar or 1/2 particles. That's easy.

Surely, one can consider the 'matter' fields without the involution property, so no global symmetry to gauge, except perhaps for the Poincare/Lorentz one which would then describe the gravitational interaction between these fields at least a classical level (level which doesn't really exist for any non-gauge fields).

As a conclusion, the need to develop interactions between matter fields (charged or not) leads to the possibility of gauge theories (the simplest being the e-m theory) which would 'mediate' these interactions.
But the Dirac field & equation can be analyzed on their own, as theories of free particles.
 
Last edited:
dextercioby said:
It indeed appears that way. The so-called classical fields which take values in a complex vector space (complex scalar field), or generally in an involuted Grassmann algebra over the reals (the Dirac fields) have the U(1) / phase symmetry built in. Gauging this symmetry with the purpose of describing possible interactions leads to the existence of a theory of U(1)-valued 1-forms which are interpreted as the potentials for a free e-m field. Not gauging the global symmetry, well no e-m interaction between the scalar or 1/2 particles. That's easy.

You just blew my mind. Any suggestions for reading more on this topic? I've got a few books on basic gauge theory, but they seem to be 100% focused on the gauge fields themselves, rather than how they could arise from matter fields (or even how they would interact with matter fields given that they have arisen somehow). In particular, anything that focuses on the classical field level (rather than delving into second quantization -- which seems inevitably to distract at least the higher-level theoretical dynamical understanding) would be great.
 
In Michele Maggiore's QFT text, this is called "minimal coupling".
 
atyy said:
In Michele Maggiore's QFT text, this is called "minimal coupling".

Thanks atyy, I'll check it out.

I've seen that term bandied about in a lot of different contexts -- the most only consistent actually has been as a name for the electrical "correction" to the canonical momentum (e.g. p -> p + eA).

It still saddens me that it seems the only place to read stuff like this is in an aside in a QFT text.
 
jjustinn said:
[...]. Any suggestions for reading more on this topic? I've got a few books on basic gauge theory, but they seem to be 100% focused on the gauge fields themselves, rather than how they could arise from matter fields (or even how they would interact with matter fields given that they have arisen somehow). In particular, anything that focuses on the classical field level (rather than delving into second quantization -- which seems inevitably to distract at least the higher-level theoretical dynamical understanding) would be great.

I can't think of something definite. I've read chapters from certain books and tried to capture the ideas which would give me a decent overview, which I probably have.
 

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