Monument to Homophobia in Casper, WY: God's Warning?

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Fred Phelps, an anti-gay preacher, plans to erect a controversial monument in Casper, Wyoming, to Matthew Shepard, a gay college student murdered in 1998. The monument, intended as a statement rather than a memorial, will feature a plaque with an inscription claiming Shepard "entered Hell" due to his sexual orientation, citing Leviticus 18:22. Phelps has communicated his intentions to the Casper city council, which may have limited options to prevent the installation due to legal precedents regarding religious monuments on public property. The council is considering various responses, including legal action or relocating existing monuments. Community reactions are mixed, with some council members expressing strong opposition to Phelps' message, while others fear the implications of allowing such a monument. The discussion has sparked broader debates about interpretations of biblical texts, the nature of hate in religious teachings, and the responsibilities of religious expression in public spaces.
  • #31
Originally posted by Zero
You missed huge chunks of Leviticus, which can also be called 'God's hit list'...go read it, then come back. Then read Numbers, where reapeat3ed, God advises to kill strangers.

Wanna know about God and killing? Ask the Amorites, or the Midianites...

changing the rules of the game, are we? you said i can pick any book. again and again, you fail to answer my questions.

give the address of the passage where God advises to kill strangers to that i can verify it. also, which version of the bible is that from?
 
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  • #32
Originally posted by Zero
Hush! Good times, my child...send me money?
Didn't you mean High Times (magazine)? Send you money where?
 
  • #33
Originally posted by Zero
No, because since God is a myth, you can make up whatever makes you feel good. You feel good by thinking there is a loving God, Phelps feels good by thinking God hates 'sinners'...both views are supported by your mythology.

i doubt that phelps feels good. what's your evidence that he feels good? what's your evidence that i feel good, that what i believe is making me feel good?

i feel no better about what I'm saying about God as when i write down 1+1=2.
 
  • #34
Originally posted by Zero
OK, I'm starting to get sleepy...let's get specific to this topic, shall we?

Phelps is correct, by his faith, and his Bible. Homosexuals are an abomination unto the LORD, baby! And what is an abomination? "That which is abominable; anything hateful, wicked, or shamefully vile; an object or state that excites disgust and hatred; a hateful or shameful vice; pollution"

where does his bible say that homosexuals should be hated?

by "get specific to the topic" it sounds like you don't want to play the game you proposed anymore because that's not about what phelps is doing. that's a convienient "out", now isn't it?

how can an ordained minister get tired of talking 'bout da LORD??
 
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  • #35
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
where does his bible say that homosexuals should be hated?

by "get specific to the topic" it sounds like you don't want to play the game you proposed anymore because that's not about what phelps is doing. that's a convienient "out", not isn't it?
What else do you do with an abomination? Dress it up in ribbons and put it on display?
 
  • #36
while jesus may not dress it up, he wouldn't, nor did he ever, advocate hating it.

i'm still waiting for your explanation of Genesis is preaching hate or how God is instructing people to kill. that and for the address of the passage where God instructs you to kill strangers.
 
  • #37
Alright. How about this? "Judge not lest ye be judged" and "vengence is mine sayeth the Lord". Look, I'm a Christian, but Phelps is WRONG!
 
  • #38
Originally posted by Tsunami
Alright. How about this? "Judge not lest ye be judged" and "vengence is mine sayeth the Lord". Look, I'm a Christian, but Phelps is WRONG!

exactly when did the Lord say that? and to whom?

even if the lord did say that, it suggests that vengence is not ours.

judgement is an epidemic in society. remember this also means to not judge yourself (you know, "i'm ugly" "i'm stupid", etc).
 
  • #39
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
exactly when did the Lord say that? and to whom?

even if the lord did say that, it suggests that vengence is not ours.
"Judge not..." Matthew 7:1
"Vengence is mine..." Romans 12:19
These are both out of the new testament.
You are correct. Vengence is not ours. That's why I say Phelps is wrong to erect a 'monument' declaring that the murdered individual entered Hell. How does HE know? Is he God? He can preach all he wants, but he doesn't act like a Christian to me. Remember, Jesus did away with Mosaic law, which seems to be pretty much what Zero is objecting to in the old testament. Old testament books are pretty harsh.

judgement is an epidemic in society. remember this also means to not judge yourself (you know, "i'm ugly" "i'm stupid", etc).
Yes judgement does seem to be an epidemic in society, but what is your point here? (And who is calling me ugly and stupid? No one here knows what I look like! )
 
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  • #40
"Judge not..." Matthew 7:1
"Vengence is mine..." Romans 12:19
These are both out of the new testament.
You are correct. Vengence is not ours. That's why I say Phelps is wrong to erect a 'monument' declaring that the murdered individual entered Hell. How does HE know? Is he God? He can preach all he wants, but he doesn't act like a Christian to me. Remember, Jesus did away with Mosaic law, which seems to be pretty much what Zero is objecting to in the old testament. Old testament books are pretty harsh.
i know that a man wrote "vengence is mine sayeth the lord," but when did the lord say it?

Yes judgement does seem to be an epidemic in society, but what is your point here? (And who is calling me ugly and stupid? No one here knows what I look like! )

my point was to support the "judge not lest ye be judged" statement. "i'm ugly" and "i'm stupid" are just two examples of ways people judge themselves. one may not judge others but still judge themselves. the statement refers both to others and the self. this goes the other way, too. "i'm good" is another judgement. there was a story about how while jesus was away the disciples were arguing about who is greatest among them. jesus reportedly replied something like this: whoever is the first (greatest) is the last, the servant of all. suddenly, no one wanted to be the greatest anymore.
 
  • #41
You may want to continue through Matthew 4 and finish reading Romans for a clearer picture of what I'm trying to say here.
 
  • #42
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
i know that a man wrote "vengence is mine sayeth the lord," but when did the lord say it?
Yes, Paul wrote the book of Romans, but he was a disciple of Christ and was charged with spreading the word and teachings of the Lord. If you believe that the bible is the inspired word of God, then there you have 'the word of the Lord'. This, however will always be in dispute among non-Christians and Christians alike.
my point was to support the "judge not lest ye be judged" statement. "i'm ugly" and "i'm stupid" are just two examples of ways people judge themselves. one may not judge others but still judge themselves. the statement refers both to others and the self. this goes the other way, too. "i'm good" is another judgement. there was a story about how while jesus was away the disciples were arguing about who is greatest among them. jesus reportedly replied something like this: whoever is the first (greatest) is the last, the servant of all. suddenly, no one wanted to be the greatest anymore.
OK. But I'm still not sure what these two statements have to do with the topic presented for discussion. Did I miss something?
 
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  • #43
much that has been said doesn't have to do with the original post.
 
  • #44
Goodnight, Phoenix. :smile: Sleep well.
 
  • #45
Originally posted by phoenixthoth

can you give one example where God explicitly gives the instruction to kill?

You asked:

Kill all homosexuals...
Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Kill the people God doesn't like (one of several instances of Genocide)
Numbers:
31:7
And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
31:9
And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
31:10
And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
31:15
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?31:17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Exodus:
32:27
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

What a loving God you have...
 
  • #46
Originally posted by enigma
You asked:

Kill all homosexuals...
Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Kill the people God doesn't like (one of several instances of Genocide)
Numbers:
31:7
And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
31:9
And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
31:10
And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
31:15
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?31:17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Exodus:
32:27
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

What a loving God you have...
Yes, actually we do if you read the new testament, which came along because God was totally fed up with the wishy-washiness of the Jews and their acceptance of multiple forms of paganism.
Again, these examples of yours are all out of the old testament and are considered part and parcel of Mosaic Law, which was necessary for the times that they were written in. When Jesus arrived on the scene, he told of the Good News that all were to be forgiven their sins in the process of repentence. I, personally, have little doubt that homosexuality and child abuse are still considered sins in the eyes of the Lord, but the new testament proclaims that God, and ONLY God is to be their judge in the determination of whether or not an individual will be sent to hell for them. This Baptist pastor is the one who is PLAYING God by proclaiming that the murdered individual 'entered Hell'.
 
  • #47
Originally posted by Zero
Yeah, justify all you like, but the Bible preaches HATE, and true Christians express hate as often as possible. Maybe you should read the Bible.
How can you say things like that in light of your defense of Islam from a similar attack?

In any case, religion thread. Closed in 3...2...1...
 
  • #48
I agree with zero that the bible just propogate some hatred.

But I really doubt he's a minister. I think you've broken half of the 10 commandments on PF alone:wink:
 
  • #49
Well, Like someone said you can become a minister over the internet, and it doesn't have to be christian at all.

Zero, did you get into some kind of non-religous Unitarian or something sometime ago? Seems I remember a post on pf 2 about it.

As to the statue, anyone want to place bets on how long it takes someone to blow it up?

This attitude the preacher conveys is not only the problem with most religion/churches, but with the country in general. People walk around in a state of bliss, not concerned with all the ugly details in life, thinking they have all the answers. This guy probably thinks he is in direct communication with god and I'd say possibly justifies his intentions with such an excuse. Whether he is or not, is another topic all together.

If this monument is in anyway funded by tax money, or placed on government land, I do not see how it could be legal. The mere message he intends is insulting and degrading to the man and his family. Sure you have freedom of speech, but only when that freedom doesn't infringe on that of others. This guy is way out of line.

And frankly, if plans on making such a bold statement and represent it as factual, then he should provide evidence. Perhaps a testimony from god or the angel that carries the message.
 
  • #50
Originally posted by russ_watters
How can you say things like that in light of your defense of Islam from a similar attack?

In any case, religion thread. Closed in 3...2...1...

are you serious?

what's the rationale behind closing a thread primarily about religion in a general discussion forum?
 
  • #51
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
are you serious?

what's the rationale behind closing a thread primarily about religion in a general discussion forum?

I don't think it IS closed...yet. We need to be careful about discussing religion is all. Zero! Quit dragging religion into it so we feel the need to defend ourselves! BE NICE!
 
  • #52
the question in the first post in this thread was this:

"question: what evidence is there that it's God's warning and not the warning of a man?"

this is a theological question and not one of religion. i'd like to point out that a *PF mentor* quickly turned this into a discussion about religion when he brought up the bible, saying things similar to "it preaches hate" and "God instructs you to kill." if religion is not permitted on this board, why is it that a PF mentor is allowed to bring it up?
 
  • #53
But, the monument will be no memorial. Phelps says the monument would be 5 to 6 feet tall and made of marble or granite. It would bear a bronze plaque bearing the image of Shepard and have an inscription reading "MATTHEW SHEPARD, Entered Hell October 12, 1998, in Defiance of God's Warning: 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination.' Leviticus 18:22."

Actually, I'd say it was this comment that spawned the reaction in question. As to religous discussion, I don't think its completely outlawed here, just that they do not wish a whole forum of unfalsifiable claims to run rampant. I imagine it could become quite a headache to deal with.

But it seems that the issues brought up by zero and others are relevant to the point of the thread. Basically, the attempt is to show that this should come as no suprise, because historically this is how people with religous beliefs react. While this will do nothing but further the animosity, its not nearly as violent as many other actions commited in the name of one god or another.
 
  • #54
the easy "asprin" for the "headache" is to not read things you disagree with. another easy "asprin" is censorship.
 
  • #55
I can't begin to imagine what perverted sexual fantasies Phelps himself entertains in God's presence. He follows one phrase from the Bible to justify his sadism, and ignores the remainder. Satan would surely be proud of him.
 
  • #56
Originally posted by Loren Booda
I can't begin to imagine what perverted sexual fantasies Phelps himself entertains in God's presence. He follows one phrase from the Bible to justify his sadism, and ignores the remainder. Satan would surely be proud of him.
I'll bet Satan is pretty proud of himself, too! He snagged himself a Baptist preacher! I don't understand the hypocrisy either. He is just as bad as the minister who killed the abortion doctor and his bodyguard. How they feel justified in their actions is simply beyond comprehension.
 
  • #57
look at the relevant quote from the bible where it says, "[abominations] will surely be put to death." that is construed to mean that one should take it upon themselves to put people to death. the quote is not an instruction to kill for it doesn't say who will put the person to death, a man or God. remember when jesus protected the prostitute by saying, "he who has not sinned shall cast the first stone?" the same applies to all sinners, even homosexuals, i would imagine. (i'm not saying *i* believe in sin or that homosexuals are sinners; just using the lingo relevant to that system.)
 
  • #58
"Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

just out of curiosity, if the bible said to jump off a bridge, would you do it?
 

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