Normalizing the spherical harmonics

Click For Summary
SUMMARY

The forum discussion centers on the normalization of spherical harmonics, specifically the coefficients \(B^m_l\) derived from the recursion relation \(B^{m+1}_l = \frac{-B^m_l}{\sqrt{(l-m)(l+m+1)}}\). The user confirmed their calculations leading to the expression \(B^m_l = \frac{(-1)^{m+l}}{2(2l)!} \sqrt{\frac{2l+1}{\pi}} \sqrt{\frac{(l-m)!}{(l+m)!}}\), which aligns with the recursion formula but differs from the book's answer. The discussion highlights the importance of correctly applying the normalization constants for associated Legendre polynomials.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of spherical harmonics and their properties
  • Familiarity with associated Legendre functions
  • Knowledge of quantum mechanics, particularly angular momentum operators
  • Proficiency in mathematical derivation and recursion relations
NEXT STEPS
  • Study the normalization of associated Legendre polynomials in detail
  • Learn about the derivation and application of spherical harmonics in quantum mechanics
  • Explore the implications of recursion relations in mathematical physics
  • Investigate the differences in normalization constants across various sources
USEFUL FOR

Students and researchers in physics, particularly those focusing on quantum mechanics, mathematical physics, and spherical harmonics. This discussion is beneficial for anyone looking to understand the intricacies of angular momentum in quantum systems.

epsilonjon
Messages
57
Reaction score
0

Homework Statement



http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/1065/87070684.png

Homework Equations



1) L_{\pm}=\pm\hbar e^{\pm i \phi}(\frac{\partial}{\partial\theta}\pm i cot\theta \frac{\partial}{\partial\phi})
2) L_{\pm}Y^m_l = \hbar\sqrt{(l \mp m)(l \pm m+1)}Y^{m \pm 1}_{l}
3)Answer given in book: Y^m_l(\theta, \phi) = (-1)^m \sqrt{\frac{(2l+1)(l- |m|)!}{4\pi(l+ |m|)!}} e^{im\phi}P^m_l (cos\theta)

The Attempt at a Solution



Eq 1 above gives

L_{+}Y^{m}_{l} = \hbar e^{i \phi}(B^m_l e^{im \phi} \frac{\partial P^m_l (cos\theta)}{\partial \theta} + icot\theta B^m_l P^m_l (cos\theta)ime^{im \phi})
=\frac{-\hbar B^m_l e^{i(m+1)\phi}}{sin\theta}[sin^2 \theta \frac{d P^m_l (cos\theta)}{d cos\theta} + mcos\theta P^m_l (cos\theta)]

Using the formula for the derivatives of associated Legendre functions (given in the question), this becomes

L_{+}Y^m_l = \frac{-\hbar B^m_l e^{i(m+1)\phi}}{sin\theta}[\sqrt{1-cos^2 \theta}P^{m+1}_l(cos\theta) - mcos\theta P^m_l(cos\theta)+mcos\theta P^m_l(cos\theta)]
= - \hbar B^m_l e^{i(m+1)\phi}P^{m+1}_l(cos\theta)

But eq 2 says that
= \hbar \sqrt{(l-m)(l+m+1)} B^{m+1}_{l} e^{i(m+1)\phi} P^{m+1}_l (cos\theta)

so combining these we get

B^{m+1}_l = \frac{-B^m_l}{\sqrt{(l-m)(l+m+1)}}

I've checked that a few times and I'm pretty sure it's correct. Could someone confirm this please? I've then gone on to try to solve this recursion formula and got an answer, but unfortunately it's different from the one given in the book :cry:

I have noticed one thing though: when I plug in {m=-1, l=2} and {m=-2, l=2} into the book answer (given above) I get

B^{-1}_2 = \frac{1}{2}\sqrt{\frac{5}{6\pi}}
B^{-2}_2 = \frac{1}{4}\sqrt{\frac{5}{6\pi}} = -\frac{1}{2}B^{-1}_{2}

But these do not obey the recursion formula! :confused:
Thanks! :smile:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Physics news on Phys.org
What are equations 4.120, 4.121, and 4.130?
 
epsilonjon said:
I've checked that a few times and I'm pretty sure it's correct. Could someone confirm this please? I've then gone on to try to solve this recursion formula and got an answer, but unfortunately it's different from the one given in the book :cry:

Your math to determine that recursion relation seems solid. Walk us through your reasoning from how you got from this to the solution for the coefficients.
 
Last edited:
vela said:
What are equations 4.120, 4.121, and 4.130?
Ah sorry, I forgot to mention that! Eqs 4.121 and 4.130 are the first two 'relevant equations' I provided in my original post. Eq 4.120 is basically the same as Eq. 4.121 so I haven't bothered putting it.
Steely Dan said:
Your math to determine that recursion relation seems solid. Walk us through your reasoning from how you got from this to the solution for the coefficients.
Okay, but I'm warning you it's a bit long-winded! Here goes...

First I started with the 'bottom rung' and used the recursion formula to work out the higher rung coefficients in terms of this:

B^{-l+1}_l = \frac{-B^{-l}_l}{\sqrt{l-(-l)} \sqrt{l-l+1}} = \frac{-B^{-l}_l}{\sqrt{2l} \sqrt{1}}
B^{-l+2}_l = \frac{-B^{-l+1}}{\sqrt{l-(-l+1)} \sqrt{l-l+1+1}} = \frac{-B^{-l+l}}{\sqrt{2l-1} \sqrt{2}} = \frac{B^{-l}_l}{\sqrt{(2l)(2l-1)} \sqrt{2*1}}
B^{-l+3}_l = \frac{-B^{-l+2}_l}{\sqrt{l-(-l+2)} \sqrt{l-l+2+1}} = \frac{-B^{-l+2}_l}{\sqrt{2l-2} \sqrt{3}} = \frac{-B^{-l}_l}{\sqrt{(2l)(2l-1)(2l-2)} \sqrt{3*2*1}}

etc. Observing the pattern, we see that

B^m_l = \frac{(-1)^{m+l}}{ \sqrt{\frac{(2l)!}{[2l-(m+l)]!}} \sqrt{(m+l)!}}B^{-l}_l = \frac{(-1)^{m+l}}{\sqrt{(2l)!}}\sqrt{\frac{(l-m)!}{(l+m)!}}B^{-l}_l
So now we need to find B^{-l}_l. Using the fact that L_z = \frac{\hbar}{i}\frac{\partial}{\partial \phi} we get

L_z Y^{-l}_l = - \hbar l Y^{-l}_l = \frac{\hbar}{i}\frac{\partial Y^{-l}_l}{\partial \phi} \Rightarrow \frac{\partial Y^{-l}_l}{\partial \phi} = -il Y^{-l}_l \Rightarrow Y^{-l}_l = f(\theta)e^{-il \phi}

Using eqs 1 and 2 from my relevant equations above,

L_{-}Y^{-l}_{l} = - \hbar e^{-i \phi}(\frac{\partial}{\partial \theta} - icot \theta \frac{\partial}{\partial \phi})Y^{-l}_{l} = 0 \Rightarrow \frac{\partial Y^{-l}_l}{\partial \theta} = icot \theta \frac{\partial Y^{-l}_l}{\partial \phi}

Combining this with Y^{-l}_l = f(\theta)e^{-il \phi}, we get

\frac{df}{d \theta} = lcot \theta f(\theta) \Rightarrow \int \frac{1}{f}df = l \int \frac{cos \theta}{sin \theta}d \theta \Rightarrow Ln(f) = l Ln(sin \theta) + constant \Rightarrow f(\theta) = A(sin \theta)^l \Rightarrow Y^{-l}_l = A(sin \theta)^l e^{-il \phi}

We now need to normalize this to find A:

1 = |A|^2 \int (sin \theta)^{2l} sin \theta d \theta d \phi = 2 \pi |A|^2 \int (sin \theta)^{2l+1} d \theta = 2 \pi |A|^2 2 \frac{(2*4*6*...*(2l))}{1*3*5*...*(2l+1)}
= 4 \pi |A|^2 \frac{(2*4*6*...*(2l))^2}{1*2*3*4*...*(2l)*(2l+1)} = 4 \pi |A|^2 \frac{(2^l l!)^2}{(2l+1)!} \Rightarrow A = \frac{1}{2^{l+1}l!}\sqrt{\frac{(2l+1)!}{\pi}}

So we have Y^{-l}_l = \frac{1}{2^{l+1}l!}\sqrt{\frac{(2l+1)!}{\pi}}(sin \theta)^l e^{-il \phi}. Call this equation (#).

From the original form of Y^m_l we have Y^{-l}_l = B^{-l}_l e^{-il \phi} P^{-l}_l(cos \theta) where P^{-l}_l(cos \theta) is an associated Legendre function, defined by

P^{-l}_{l}(x) = (1-x^2)^{l/2}(\frac{d}{dx})^l[\frac{1}{2^l l!} (\frac{d}{dx})^l (x^2-1)^l] = (1-x^2)^{l/2} \frac{1}{2^l l!} (\frac{d}{dx})^{2l}(x^2-1)^l

= (1-x^2)^{l/2} \frac{1}{2^l l!} (\frac{d}{dx})^{2l}[x^{2l}+...] = (1-x^2)^{l/2} \frac{1}{2^l l!} (2l)! \Rightarrow P^{-l}_l(cos \theta) = (sin \theta)^l \frac{(2l)!}{2^l l!}

Hence Y^{-l}_l = B^{-l}_l e^{-il \phi} (sin \theta)^l \frac{(2l)!}{2^l l!}. Combining this with equation (#) above, we get

B^{-l}_l \frac{(2l)!}{2^l l!} = \frac{1}{2^{l+1}l!} \sqrt{\frac{(2l+1)!}{\pi}} \Rightarrow B^{-l}_l = \frac{1}{2(2l)!} \sqrt{\frac{(2l+1)!}{\pi}}

Plugging this equation for B^{-l}_l into our equation for B^m_l we finally end up with

B^m_l = \frac{(-1)^{m+l}}{\sqrt{(2l)!}}\sqrt{\frac{(l-m)!}{(l+m)!}}\frac{1}{2(2l)!} \sqrt{\frac{(2l+1)!}{\pi}} = \frac{(-1)^{m+l}}{2(2l)!} \sqrt{\frac{2l+1}{\pi}} \sqrt{\frac{(l-m)!}{(l+m)!}}

which is close to the answer given in the book, but not the same :cry: However, I checked it for a few different combinations of m and l, and it does obey the recursion relation (something which the book answer doesn't seem to do!).

Thanks for your help. I'm going to lie down in a dark room...
 
Last edited:
...
So we have Y^{-l}_l = \frac{1}{2^{l+1}l!}\sqrt{\frac{(2l+1)!}{\pi}}(sin \theta)^l e^{-il \phi}. Call this equation (#).

Everything up until here is correct, as far as I can tell (you went to the trouble of posting everything, even though it's not exactly what I was asking for, so I tried to follow everything as best as I could).

From the original form of Y^m_l we have Y^{-l}_l = B^{-l}_l e^{-il \phi} P^{-l}_l(cos \theta) where P^{-l}_l(cos \theta) is an associated Legendre function, defined by

P^{-l}_{l}(x) = (1-x^2)^{l/2}(\frac{d}{dx})^l[\frac{1}{2^l l!} (\frac{d}{dx})^l (x^2-1)^l] = (1-x^2)^{l/2} \frac{1}{2^l l!} (\frac{d}{dx})^{2l}(x^2-1)^l

= (1-x^2)^{l/2} \frac{1}{2^l l!} (\frac{d}{dx})^{2l}[x^{2l}+...] = (1-x^2)^{l/2} \frac{1}{2^l l!} (2l)! \Rightarrow P^{-l}_l(cos \theta) = (sin \theta)^l \frac{(2l)!}{2^l l!}

There is an error here, however. What you have actually written down is the associated Legendre polynomial P^{l}_{l}; there is an additional constant factor out front for when the m number is negative, that you are missing here.
 
Steely Dan said:
There is an error here, however. What you have actually written down is the associated Legendre polynomial P^{l}_{l}; there is an additional constant factor out front for when the m number is negative, that you are missing here.
Ah yeah sorry, for some reason my book omits the phase (-1)^m from the Legendre function so I forgot about it. But I think all that does is change the final answer to

B^m_l = \frac{(-1)^{l}}{2(2l)!} \sqrt{\frac{2l+1}{\pi}} \sqrt{\frac{(l-m)!}{(l+m)!}}
I've still got that pesky \frac{1}{(2l)!} in there. I am still confused as to why the book answer does not satisfy the recursion formula though :confused: It indicates to me that the recursion formula is wrong, but I've checked it like 10 times and I swear it's correct!

Thanks for your help! :smile:
 
epsilonjon said:
I am still confused as to why the book answer does not satisfy the recursion formula though :confused: It indicates to me that the recursion formula is wrong, but I've checked it like 10 times and I swear it's correct!

Thanks for your help! :smile:

When I first looked at it I assumed you had calculated the coefficients incorrectly, but I just took another look at it and maybe I was wrong. I'll take a closer look later on. The negative sign in the recursion relation definitely worries me; it shouldn't be there, I think.
 
Last edited:
Steely Dan said:
When I first looked at it I assumed you had calculated the coefficients incorrectly, but I just took another look at it and maybe I was wrong. I'll take a closer look later on. The negative sign in the recursion relation definitely worries me; it shouldn't be there, I think.
Thanks mate, really appreciate your help.
 
Steely Dan said:
When I first looked at it I assumed you had calculated the coefficients incorrectly, but I just took another look at it and maybe I was wrong. I'll take a closer look later on. The negative sign in the recursion relation definitely worries me; it shouldn't be there, I think.
Sorry to bump this but was wondering whether you (or anyone else) had managed to figure it out or could give me a hint? I've gone over it again and still get the same recursion formula. It's really bugging me now :frown:
 
  • #10
Your recursion formula is correct. It's the normalization of the associated Legendre polynomials that is confusing you, I think.

Try looking up the ##Y_2^m##'s and ##P_2^m##'s and explicitly working out what ##B_2^m## is equal to for the various allowed values of m. You should be able to see what's going on.
 

Similar threads

Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
4K
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
29
Views
2K
Replies
0
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
10
Views
3K