News Notable People's Thoughts on the Federal Reserve System

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The discussion centers on notable historical figures' criticisms of the Federal Reserve System, highlighting concerns about its impact on democracy and economic control. Key quotes from figures like Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln express fears of banking monopolies and the dangers of private control over currency. Participants debate the relevance of these historical perspectives to the modern Federal Reserve, questioning whether past criticisms still apply today. Some argue for a public central bank that serves the people's interests rather than private entities, while others call for current evidence of the Fed's malfeasance. The conversation reflects deep-seated concerns about monetary policy and the influence of financial institutions on governance.
  • #31
You want to pay for government programs using the money that people put in banks? Then what happens when someone wants to make a withdrawal? You tell Jonny Retiree to give back his social security check for that month? Or are you saying that interest should continue to be charged, but go toward paying government programs?
 
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  • #32
wasteofo2 said:
All of your quotes are from far before, or nearly directly after the Federal Reserve Act was passed. All of these figures are far removed from our present state of being. What centralized monetary institutions were in the 1700's and 1800's, and what figures from those periods thought of them, don't necessarily reflect the reality of what one specific centralized monetary institution has become in the year 2005. What was said about the Federal Reserve before WWI doesn't reflect what it has become in 2005.

Alan Greenspan blaimed the Federal Reserve for putting too much money in the market and becoming the architect of the Great Depression in his essay Gold and Economic Freedom of the 1966. Here it is. The essay is under free domain.

An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold standard is one issue which unites statists of all persuasions. They seem to sense-perhaps more clearly and subtly than many consistent defenders of laissez-faire-that gold and economic freedom are inseparable, that the gold standard is an instrument of laissez-faire and that each implies and requires the other.

In order to understand the source of their antagonism, it is necessary first to understand the specific role of gold in a free society.

Money is the common denominator of all economic transactions. It is that commodity which serves as a medium of exchange, is universally acceptable to all participants in an exchange economy as payment for their goods or services, and can, therefore, be used as a standard of market value and as a store of value, i.e., as a means of saving.

The existence of such a commodity is a precondition of a division of labor economy. If men did not have some commodity of objective value which was generally acceptable as money, they would have to resort to primitive barter or be forced to live on self-sufficient farms and forgo the inestimable advantages of specialization. If men had no means to store value, i.e., to save, neither long-range planning nor exchange would be possible.

What medium of exchange will be acceptable to all participants in an economy is not determined arbitrarily. First, the medium of exchange should be durable. In a primitive society of meager wealth, wheat might be sufficiently durable to serve as a medium, since all exchanges would occur only during and immediately after the harvest, leaving no value-surplus to store. But where store-of-value considerations are important, as they are in richer, more civilized societies, the medium of exchange must be a durable commodity, usually a metal. A metal is generally chosen because it is homogeneous and divisible: every unit is the same as every other and it can be blended or formed in any quantity. Precious jewels, for example, are neither homogeneous nor divisible.

More important, the commodity chosen as a medium must be a luxury. Human desires for luxuries are unlimited and, therefore, luxury goods are always in demand and will always be acceptable. Wheat is a luxury in underfed civilizations, but not in a prosperous society. Cigarettes ordinarily would not serve as money, but they did in post-World War II Europe where they were considered a luxury. The term "luxury good" implies scarcity and high unit value. Having a high unit value, such a good is easily portable; for instance, an ounce of gold is worth a half-ton of pig iron.

In the early stages of a developing money economy, several media of exchange might be used, since a wide variety of commodities would fulfill the foregoing conditions. However, one of the commodities will gradually displace all others, by being more widely acceptable. Preferences on what to hold as a store of value, will shift to the most widely acceptable commodity, which, in turn, will make it still more acceptable. The shift is progressive until that commodity becomes the sole medium of exchange. The use of a single medium is highly advantageous for the same reasons that a money economy is superior to a barter economy: it makes exchanges possible on an incalculably wider scale.

Whether the single medium is gold, silver, sea shells, cattle, or tobacco is optional, depending on the context and development of a given economy. In fact, all have been employed, at various times, as media of exchange. Even in the present century, two major commodities, gold and silver, have been used as international media of exchange, with gold becoming the predominant one. Gold, having both artistic and functional uses and being relatively scarce, has always been considered a luxury good. It is durable, portable, homogeneous, divisible, and, therefore, has significant advantages over all other media of exchange. Since the beginning of Would War I, it has been virtually the sole international standard of exchange.

If all goods and services were to be paid for in gold, large payments would be difficult to execute, and this would tend to limit the extent of a society's division of labor and specialization. Thus a logical extension of the creation of a medium of exchange, is the development of a banking system and credit instruments (bank notes and deposits) which act as a substitute for, but are convertible into, gold.

A free banking system based on gold is able to extend credit and thus to create bank notes (currency) and deposits, according to the production requirements of the economy. Individual owners of gold are induced, by payments of interest, to deposit their gold in a bank (against which they can draw checks). But since it is rarely the case that all depositors want to withdraw all their gold at the same time, banker need keep only a fraction of his total deposits in gold as reserves. This enables the banker to loan out more than the amount of his gold deposits (which means that he holds claims to gold rather than gold as security for his deposits). But the amount of loans which he can afford to make is not arbitrary: he has to gauge it in relation to his reserves and to the status of his investments.

When banks loan money to finance productive and profitable endeavors, the loans are paid off rapidly and bank credit continues to be generally available. But when the business ventures financed by bank credit are less profitable and slow to pay off, bankers soon find that their loans outstanding are excessive relative to their gold reserves, and they begin to curtail new lending, usually by charging higher interest rates. This tends to restrict the financing of new ventures and requires the existing borrowers to improve their profitability before they can obtain credit for further expansion. Thus, under the gold standard, a free banking system stands as the protector of an economy's stability and balanced growth.

When gold is accepted as the medium of exchange by most or all nations, an unhampered free international gold standard serves to foster a world-wide division of labor and the broadest international trade. Even though the units of exchange (the dollar, the pound, the franc, etc.) differ from country to country, when all are defined in terms of gold the economies of the different countries act as one--so long as there are no restraints on trade or on the movement of capital. Credit, interest rates, and prices tend to follow similar patterns in all countries. For example, if banks in one country extend credit too liberally, interest rates in that country will tend to fall, inducing depositors to shift their gold to higher-interest paying banks in other countries. This will immediately cause a shortage of bank reserves in the "easy money" country, inducing tighter credit standards and a return to competitively higher interest rates again.

A fully free banking system and fully consistent gold standard have not as yet been achieved. But prior to World War I, the banking system in the United States (and in most of the world) was based on gold, and even though governments intervened occasionally, banking was more free than controlled. Periodically, as a result of overly rapid credit expansion, banks became loaned up to the limit of their gold reserves, interest rates rose sharply, new credit was cut off, and the economy went into a sharp, but short-lived recession. (Compared with the depressions of 1920 and 1932, the pre-World War I business declines were mild indeed.) It was limited gold reserves that stopped the unbalanced expansions of business activity, before they could develop into the post- World War I type of disaster. The readjustment periods were short and the economies quickly reestablished a sound basis to resume expansion.

But the process of cure was misdiagnosed as the disease: if shortage of bank reserves was causing a business decline- argued economic interventionists-why not find a way of supplying increased reserves to the banks so they never need be short! If banks can continue to loan money indefinitely--it was claimed--there need never be any slumps in business. And so the Federal Reserve System was organized in 1913. It consisted of twelve regional Federal Reserve banks nominally owned by private bankers, but in fact government sponsored, controlled, and supported. Credit extended by these banks is in practice (though not legally) backed by the taxing power of the federal government. Technically, we remained on the gold standard; individuals were still free to own gold, and gold continued to be used as bank reserves. But now, in addition to gold, credit extended by the Federal Reserve banks (paper reserves) could serve as legal tender to pay depositors.

When business in the United States underwent a mild contraction in 1927, the Federal Reserve created more paper reserves in the hope of forestalling any possible bank reserve shortage. More disastrous, however, was the Federal Reserve's attempt to assist Great Britain who had been losing gold to us because the Bank of England refused to allow interest rates to rise when market forces dictated (it was politically unpalatable). The reasoning of the authorities involved was as follows: if the Federal Reserve pumped excessive paper reserves into American banks, interest rates in the United States would fall to a level comparable with those in Great Britain; this would act to stop Britain's gold loss and avoid the political embarrassment of having to raise interest rates.

The "Fed" succeeded: it stopped the gold loss, but it nearly destroyed the economies of the world, in the process. The excess credit which the Fed pumped into the economy spilled over into the stock market-triggering a fantastic speculative boom. Belatedly, Federal Reserve officials attempted to sop up the excess reserves and finally succeeded in braking the boom. But it was too late: by 1929 the speculative imbalances had become so overwhelming that the attempt precipitated a sharp retrenching and a consequent demoralizing of business confidence. As a result, the American economy collapsed. Great Britain fared even worse, and rather than absorb the full consequences of her previous folly, she abandoned the gold standard completely in 1931, tearing asunder what remained of the fabric of confidence and inducing a world-wide series of bank failures. The world economies plunged into the Great Depression of the 1930's.

With a logic reminiscent of a generation earlier, statists argued that the gold standard was largely to blame for the credit debacle which led to the Great Depression. If the gold standard had not existed, they argued, Britain's abandonment of gold payments in 1931 would not have caused the failure of banks all over the world. (The irony was that since 1913, we had been, not on a gold standard, but on what may be termed "a mixed gold standard"; yet it is gold that took the blame.)

But the opposition to the gold standard in any form-from a growing number of welfare-state advocates-was prompted by a much subtler insight: the realization that the gold standard is incompatible with chronic deficit spending (the hallmark of the welfare state). Stripped of its academic jargon, the welfare state is nothing more than a mechanism by which governments confiscate the wealth of the productive members of a society to support a wide variety of welfare schemes. A substantial part of the confiscation is effected by taxation. But the welfare statists were quick to recognize that if they wished to retain political power, the amount of taxation had to be limited and they had to resort to programs of massive deficit spending, i.e., they had to borrow money, by issuing government bonds, to finance welfare expenditures on a large scale.

Under a gold standard, the amount of credit that an economy can support is determined by the economy's tangible assets, since every credit instrument is ultimately a claim on some tangible asset. But government bonds are not backed by tangible wealth, only by the government's promise to pay out of future tax revenues, and cannot easily be absorbed by the financial markets. A large volume of new government bonds can be sold to the public only at progressively higher interest rates. Thus, government deficit spending under a gold standard is severely limited.

The abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists to use the banking system as a means to an unlimited expansion of credit. They have created paper reserves in the form of government bonds which-through a complex series of steps-the banks accept in place of tangible assets and treat as if they were an actual deposit, i.e., as the equivalent of what was formerly a deposit of gold. The holder of a government bond or of a bank deposit created by paper reserves believes that he has a valid claim on a real asset. But the fact is that there are now more claims outstanding than real assets.

The law of supply and demand is not to be conned. As the supply of money (of claims) increases relative to the supply of tangible assets in the economy, prices must eventually rise. Thus the earnings saved by the productive members of the society lose value in terms of goods. When the economy's books are finally balanced, one finds that loss in value represents the goods purchased by the government for welfare or other purposes with the money proceeds of the government bonds financed by bank credit expansion.

In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. If everyone decided, for example, to convert all his bank deposits to silver or copper or any other good, and thereafter declined to accept checks as payment for goods, bank deposits would lose their purchasing power and government-created bank credit would be worthless as a claim on goods. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.

This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard.
http://www.gold-eagle.com/greenspan041998.html

Just because these people came before or just after 1913 doesn't change principle. Just as it is not valid to say that freedom does not necessarily apply to us now because this is 2005, not 1776, similarly, it is not valid to discredit the opinions of the people above just by saying that the people were born just before 1913. Give reasons for your statements.
 
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  • #34
A couple of points;
In answer to those who likened the federal reserve to the justice department and the state department the federal reserve is privately owned unlike their examples.
For those who questioned the validity of the criticisms because of their age then I suggest they research the steps JFK took to circumvent the fed and so avoid american taxpayers paying interest on non-existant money. Some believe the currency 'silver backs' he issued directly through the treasury would have spelled the end of the fed if it had continued because this currency was backed by silver with an intrinsic value whereas the fed reserves notes had no intrinsic value and relied purely on confidence. Unfortunately the issuance of this new currency stopped following his assassination but not before he had put $4 billion into circulation in competition with the fed reserve's notes which following his demise were promptly recalled.
For more information see executive order 11110
http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/executiveorder11110.htm
 
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  • #35
It's like a chain letter

I've always considered the financial system like a chain letter that can exist as long as everybody acts like it is a valid competent true system.
Printing up money, selling stock by corporations, geez. Our country usually runs a deficit like every year like every other country. It's funny but ridiculous.
Colleges teach economics and business but need government money and grants to survive. It's silly.
I always carry a hundred dollar bill in my pocket just in case, Gil of surrealcity.com
 
  • #36
The intent of Congress in shaping the Federal Reserve Act was to keep politics out of monetary policy. That seems like a good idea to me, especially after reading some of the posts in this thread.

The private interests in the Federal Reserve System are money lenders, not money changers. The term money changers has been a pejorative for some 2000 years.
 
  • #37
Off Topic

Congratulations LYN on your new status.

Long overdue IMO.
 
  • #38
loseyourname said:
You want to pay for government programs using the money that people put in banks? Then what happens when someone wants to make a withdrawal? You tell Jonny Retiree to give back his social security check for that month? Or are you saying that interest should continue to be charged, but go toward paying government programs?

I don't know what I was thinking exactly; the fractional reserve banking can't be taken away in one swoop, but the fact that there is a bunch of extra money in use due to it's practice, and that money would now come from the issuance of the government without an interest burden would mean that there is exponentially more money in use. With this extra money, perhaps we could make the economy more stable by chaning the reserve ratio by law or something (if it serves a best interest of economic stability).

Since there'd be no obligation of the government to pay off interest to a federal reserve, we wouldn't need to pay as much in taxes, and the extra money which would've gone to the money lenders/changers could go towards providing more competition between banks, thereby better services for the people such as lower interest rates for loans. This would of course expand the growth and quality of jobs among the least of things.
 
  • #40
Jonny_trigonometry,

Is your beef with government borrowing, or with the institution that facilitates that borrowing? The decision on whether to borrow and how much to borrow is with congress, not the Federal Reserve. The Fed just organizes the borrowing process.
 
  • #41
Something that some people posting here probably ought to read...
The Fed 101

The "profit" made by the fed goes to fund the operations of the fed and any excess "profit" goes directly into the U.S. Treasury. Doesn't exactly sound like a privately owned operation to me.
 
  • #42
TheStatutoryApe said:
Something that some people posting here probably ought to read...
The Fed 101
The "profit" made by the fed goes to fund the operations of the fed and any excess "profit" goes directly into the U.S. Treasury. Doesn't exactly sound like a privately owned operation to me.

"The income gathered from these activities is used to finance day to day operations, including information gathering and economic research."

So the day to day operations include these things. they also include many other things. This is what made you think that the Fed is not privately owned? When you get down to how they decide to spend their money, things become very complicated very quickly.

http://www.richmondfed.org/publications/economic_research/economic_review/pdfs/er690201.pdf

notice on page 9, after "expenses" and payment of dividends, 1/2 of the rest of the money goes to a surplus fund, and the other goes to the treasury.

" The Treasury department sells T-bills at weekly auctions every Monday at New York City's Federal Reserve Bank. The Federal Reserve Board acts as the fiscal agent and conducts the auction, called a yield auction. The bills are sold at discounts from their face values. The investors in attendance bid on how much the bills are worth to them today, using bids based on annualized discount yields. The winning bidders pay on the following Thursday." - http://www.ameritrade.com/education/html/encyclopedia/tutorial3/t3_s6.html

and then the treasury sells extra securities that the fed paid to them.

there are many ways the Fed can make purchases look legitimate. I bet most of the money they spend will look like it is a valid thing to do. I haven't been able to find much about wether or not the fed spends money that goes into the economy as a whole, or just their buddies. Many things can be written off as a business expense."A major responsibility of the Federal Reserve System is to provide the total amount of reserves consistent with the needs of the economy at reasonably stable prices. Changes in the volume of reserves influence the money supply, the availability of credit, interest rates, and as a result, the volume of spending. Depository institutions feel the impact of changes initially, but the effects quickly spread to the entire domestic economy, and often to the international economy as well." - http://www.richmondfed.org/publications/educator_resources/federal_reserve_today/policy.cfm

This shows an idea of how many options a person has if they have inside information. If you know what desicisions will be initiated, you know better ways to invest in the economy and pull money out of it. It's not just all in the profits the Fed makes, but also the abilities the people in the know about the fed's dealings have in investing correctly. When you are as powerful as people in the board of directors of the fed, you have ways of getting around being accused of insider info. Of course I can't back up this claim with evidence, but you can't discount it either. The flow of money can be masked too, if it takes many twists and turns through complicated language and policies. There is no doubt an international influence of the fed also, those in the know don't have to just make money in the us.
 
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  • #43
Jonny_trigonometry said:
they don't deserve it. To support it is to claim that you have more understanding than all those who I quoted.
Besides being argument-from-authority, the authority you prefer (Edison) isn't an authority at all!: Edison was an inventer, not an economist. The posture you have taken is not conducive to a reasonable discussion.

Anyways, I guess I'm not sure what your main beef is here - is it just in the fact that the Fed is privately owned or is there some specific way it is operating that you think is bad? Some of what you say seems to imply that you think the Fed is actually stealing money from the economy - do you believe that?

Personally, I think the economy is working rather well and I don't see a compelling reasn to change it.

It should also be pointed out that comparisons between economics and the principles of freedom are not valid because the economy does evolve, for a number of reasons. Most importantly, technology, trade, and the proliferation of prosperity. Ie, the banking system needs to be different than it was 150 years ago because a much higher fraction of the population has money to burn than they used to.
 
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  • #44
Jonny_trigonometry,

I first want to say that I too agree that the Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt and dangerous institutions on the planet. This position has been derived from my own personal research on banking with special emphasis on fractional reserve banking that I have conducted over the past six years.

That being said, if it was the intention of this thread to educate members who may be unfamiliar with fractional reserve practices and the history of events that lead up to the creation of the Federal Reserve and it's continued existence it would probably have been prudent to first of all introduce the concepts of money, currency, and fractional reserve banking. Additionally, if you are going to employ the use of quotes regarding the history of fractional reserve banking in the United States in order to show the economic and social situation prior to the Federal Reserve, that it should have been stated that this was the case before hand. There are present day opponents, arguments, and institutions that challenge the Federal Reserve, so excerpts or quotes from these sources should have been used. I'm not saying that the quotes that you used are invalid, just that they may appear dated and irrelevant for those who aren't reading them in proper historical context.

When I go home for lunch today I'll try to remember to grab one of my papers that I have written up on fractional reserve banking and the Federal Reserve so that I can attach it to a post. For anyone who is interested, I think the paper is a decent introduction and overview to these subjects. I noticed already that Art mentioned Executive Order 11,110 signed by JFK, one of the topics I briefly touch upon in my paper.
 
  • #45
By the way, what Penguino meant by "confirmation bias" is here:
Jonny_trigonometry said:
So, it's well established that many people with deeper understanding of money and our country abhor the Federal Reserve banking system, and fractional reserve banking. What Is my opinion? I would say that I'd have to agree with them, Thomas Edison said it best.
Edison was not an economist, yet somehow you have concluded he had a "deeper understanding of mony and our country" (than whom, you don't say...). It appears you are saying that because he holds the opinion he holds, that makes him the expert. That's textbook confirmation bias.

It would be more helpful if you explain your opinion - ie, how exactly would the monetary system you envision (alluded to in your last paragraph of the op) work? How would it be better than what we have now?
 
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  • #46
I just thought I should add that expecting the average person to change their perceptions about our current financial system and the Federal Reserve without giving them the opportunity to become more thoroughly acquainted with the material will probably result in dissent and opposition. Anyone born past 1913 has grown up accepting the Federal Reserve and fractional reserve banking as the authority on financial matters in the United States. To think otherwise requires a drastic amount of personal research and inquiry into the subject independent of influence from the media, which happens to be controlled by international banking interests.

I was just thinking about this the past hour and realized that an analogy can be drawn between understanding the deceit of the Federal Reserve and the illusion of the Matrix. (For those who haven’t seen the Matrix this comparison won’t make sense, but it should be easy enough to find a summary of the story somewhere on the web.) Those who are born into the Matrix are so accustomed to it that they dare not challenge its nature. Additionally, it’s fair to say that most individuals in the Matrix are probably content with their state of existence as long as they don’t question the authority over reality that the Matrix exercises. In fact, many citizens of the Matrix are probably happy with their existence and view of reality.

In the same way, most citizens are content with the current financial system and fractional reserve banking that our nation currently operates on. It would be mind boggling for most to believe that the system is actually detrimental to our interests, and allows for the confiscation of wealth and power by a limited few. Granted, we could continue to operate as we currently do, a society based on debt and unrelenting financial obligation and we probably would be ok, at least for a while. But for those who are aware of what’s really going on with the economic and status situation in the United States “Ok” is not good enough. Surviving, shouldn’t be good enough in a modern day society that has the potential to improve the standard of living for all of its citizens and guarantee a sustainable legacy for subsequent generations.

Edit: Made some minor grammar changes.
 
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  • #47
Found it.

I ran home and grabbed my paper covering a brief history of fractional reserve banking and the Federal Reserve System. I inserted a forward in the document to help clarify my intentions and provide some basic information.

The paper begins with the history of fractional reserve banking and illustrates how events lead up to the creation of the Federal Reserve. Some of the quotes I have used in this paper have already been cited in this thread, but never the less I think that this paper may offer some new insights on the subject.

Some food for thought:

"Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth. Most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their business as if nothing had happened." - Winston Churchill
 

Attachments

  • #48
russ_watters said:
By the way, what Penguino meant by "confirmation bias" is here: Edison was not an economist, yet somehow you have concluded he had a "deeper understanding of mony and our country" (than whom, you don't say...). It appears you are saying that because he holds the opinion he holds, that makes him the expert. That's textbook confirmation bias.
It would be more helpful if you explain your opinion - ie, how exactly would the monetary system you envision (alluded to in your last paragraph of the op) work? How would it be better than what we have now?


I'm not an economist, but you aren't either, are you? Thomas Edison wasn't an economist either, but do you not agree that he was an independant and creative thinker, able to learn and retain a lot of things especially due to the prominent people he knew, and it's certain that he knew at least one economist? I'm not presenting myself well at all. I look over my posts and it looks like they were made by a high schooler or something I'm having trouble explaining how all this stuff works because there is much to explain, and I realize all the attacks on me were initiated by my second post. When I said that, everybody knew to go after the imature guy (thats me), and they attack the arguer more than the argument.
 
  • #49
Jonny_trigonometry said:
I'm not an economist, but you aren't either, are you?
Correct. So shouldn't we be consulting economists on this economic matter?
Thomas Edison wasn't an economist either, but do you not agree that he was an independant and creative thinker...
Sure, but so am I! Being a smart guy doesn't make him an economist.
...especially due to the prominent people he knew, and it's certain that he knew at least one economist?
Probably - so why don't we hear directly from them?
When I said that, everybody knew to go after the imature guy (thats me), and they attack the arguer more than the argument.
The problem is, you didn't really make an argument for us to debate. A number of people (myself included) asked for an explanation of what your point really is...
 
  • #50
Do some research on countries that have their monetary policy controlled by their government. You will see that countries that have governments that control monetary policy have a long history of failure with high inflation.
 
  • #51
Jonny_trigonometry said:
"The income gathered from these activities is used to finance day to day operations, including information gathering and economic research."

So the day to day operations include these things. they also include many other things. This is what made you think that the Fed is not privately owned? When you get down to how they decide to spend their money, things become very complicated very quickly.
Maybe you should quote that more fully and adress the point that I actually made here...
The income gathered from these activities is used to finance day to day operations, including information gathering and economic research. Any excess income is funneled back into the U.S. Treasury.
Me said:
The "profit" made by the fed goes to fund the operations of the fed and any excess "profit" goes directly into the U.S. Treasury. Doesn't exactly sound like a privately owned operation to me.
You may also want to note this part of the source I cited...
The Fed is an independent entity, but is subject to oversight from Congress. Basically, this means that decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the government, but Congress periodically reviews the Fed's activities.
_______________________

The Fed is headed by a government agency in Washington known as the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve. The Board of Governors consists of 7 presidential appointees, who each serve 14 year terms. All members must be confirmed by the Senate, and they can be reappointed. The board is led by a chairman and a vice chairman, each appointed by the President and approved by the Senate for 4 year terms.
There are several government bodies that are viewed as "independant entities" and are responsible for their own funding but this does not mean they are "privately owned". Please show and quote a source that says this and backs up the assertion with credible evidence. Unfortunately I don't have the time to comb through several pages of pdf looking for this evidence.


J Trig said:
http://www.richmondfed.org/publications/economic_research/economic_review/pdfs/er690201.pdf

notice on page 9, after "expenses" and payment of dividends, 1/2 of the rest of the money goes to a surplus fund, and the other goes to the treasury.
Actually in full it states that half goes into an account to gain interest as compensation for the services of the bank and after a certain mark has been reached that money held in the "surplus fund" does still find it's way into the US Treasury coffers. This is the way all banks make money for their services. In effect the fed is getting paid for being the bank of the US government in the same fashion that our personal banks get paid for the services they render private citizens except that in the case of the Fed this is determined by the customer(the US government) as opposed to the bank(the fed). So I still don't see how this makes the fed a private venture.

J Trig said:
there are many ways the Fed can make purchases look legitimate. I bet most of the money they spend will look like it is a valid thing to do. I haven't been able to find much about wether or not the fed spends money that goes into the economy as a whole, or just their buddies. Many things can be written off as a business expense.
Yep, and the same goes for the FBI and the NSA and just about any government body you can name.

J Trig said:
"A major responsibility of the Federal Reserve System is to provide the total amount of reserves consistent with the needs of the economy at reasonably stable prices. Changes in the volume of reserves influence the money supply, the availability of credit, interest rates, and as a result, the volume of spending. Depository institutions feel the impact of changes initially, but the effects quickly spread to the entire domestic economy, and often to the international economy as well." - http://www.richmondfed.org/publications/educator_resources/federal_reserve_today/policy.cfm

This shows an idea of how many options a person has if they have inside information. If you know what desicisions will be initiated, you know better ways to invest in the economy and pull money out of it. It's not just all in the profits the Fed makes, but also the abilities the people in the know about the fed's dealings have in investing correctly. When you are as powerful as people in the board of directors of the fed, you have ways of getting around being accused of insider info. Of course I can't back up this claim with evidence, but you can't discount it either. The flow of money can be masked too, if it takes many twists and turns through complicated language and policies. There is no doubt an international influence of the fed also, those in the know don't have to just make money in the us.
Yeah like you said that called insider information and is illegal. This is one of the reasons why the Fed was made an "Independant Entity" so as to make some sort of separation between the politicians and the decisions made in regards to monetary policy to try to assuage the issues that can and do arise with regard to conflict of interest. Considering that this is the very purpose of the fed and that the fed in the entity that influences monetary policy I am quite sure that there are measures in place to prevent those who work for the fed taking advantage of their knowledge. How effect these are I don't know and just how much this sort of thing is taken advantage of I don't know but this sort of thing can and will be a problem no matter what as long as we are using a capitalist system. The only thing we can do is make it as hard as possible for these people to do such things and keep those that we would suspect of doing such things out of those positions of power.


I have not argued at all your stance on fractional savings yet I just want to clear up one of your other major arguments, that being the idea that the fed is a private organization. So far as I can find it is not. Please show me some proof that it is if you can find any and I will be more than happy to acknowledge that and stop raising this issue.
 
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  • #52
TheStatutoryApe said:
Maybe you should quote that more fully and adress the point that I actually made here...
You may also want to note this part of the source I cited...
There are several government bodies that are viewed as "independant entities" and are responsible for their own funding but this does not mean they are "privately owned". Please show and quote a source that says this and backs up the assertion with credible evidence. Unfortunately I don't have the time to comb through several pages of pdf looking for this evidence.

You could also say that all private companies are "independant entities" of the government. This is just tricky wording. Besides, you quoted some unofficial website anyway, why should i take what they have to say seriously anyway? If you want to use that info, then you must agree that the fed is privately owned because you will find all kinds of unofficial websites that claim it is.

TheStatutoryApe said:
Actually in full it states that half goes into an account to gain interest as compensation for the services of the bank and after a certain mark has been reached that money held in the "surplus fund" does still find it's way into the US Treasury coffers. This is the way all banks make money for their services.

Okay, so half goes here, half goes there... da da da... and all the sudden... zap, obviously it's not privately owned!

What do you mean this is how banks make money!? How sure of your understanding of our economy are you? If you don't know how banks make money, you have no business posting in this thread.

this might help: http://money.howstuffworks.com/bank4.htm

TheStatutoryApe said:
In effect the fed is getting paid for being the bank of the US government in the same fashion that our personal banks get paid for the services they render private citizens except that in the case of the Fed this is determined by the customer(the US government) as opposed to the bank(the fed).

This is correct. The fed gets paid from the interest from the money it issues to the american people (US government), in the same fashion that private banks get paid for loaning out money to citizens (interest rates). The last part you have switched though, the fed sets the interest rates that the government (the people) must pay to use their money.

TheStatutoryApe said:
So I still don't see how this makes the fed a private venture...Yep, and the same goes for the FBI and the NSA and just about any government body you can name. Yeah like you said that called insider information and is illegal. This is one of the reasons why the Fed was made an "Independant Entity" so as to make some sort of separation between the politicians and the decisions made in regards to monetary policy to try to assuage the issues that can and do arise with regard to conflict of interest.

And the politicians and fed board members would expect this to be an obvious defense against people like me, but when you regard the politicians and the rich as walking hand and hand, you can see that if they look out for each other, they will both prosper. Making them "independant" doesn't make them any more vulnerable to being prosecuted than if they were fully integrated. A senator can still be prosecuted, but they have enough connections to get away with more than a petty criminal. Likewise, a person in a position to control all the banks in the US will have similar connections. Personal connections trancend titles.

TheStatutoryApe said:
Considering that this is the very purpose of the fed and that the fed in the entity that influences monetary policy I am quite sure that there are measures in place to prevent those who work for the fed taking advantage of their knowledge. How effect these are I don't know and just how much this sort of thing is taken advantage of I don't know

Use your imagination. There are ways around almost anything. Remember that quote "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely", do you agree with it?

TheStatutoryApe said:
but this sort of thing can and will be a problem no matter what as long as we are using a capitalist system. The only thing we can do is make it as hard as possible for these people to do such things and keep those that we would suspect of doing such things out of those positions of power.
I have not argued at all your stance on fractional savings yet I just want to clear up one of your other major arguments, that being the idea that the fed is a private organization. So far as I can find it is not. Please show me some proof that it is if you can find any and I will be more than happy to acknowledge that and stop raising this issue.

If you agree that the warren commission report was an incorrect account for the assassination of JFK, then you can understand that many powerful people can put on a mask and fool us into thinking they are harmless. Speaking of JFK, as Art mentioned earlier, JFK was assissanatied just 5 months after he signed executive order 11110, which would've in the long run put the Fed reserve of NY out of business. Do you think JFK had any idea about how the economy works? Why did he make this order in the first place? Why would he want to put the Fed out of business? If the Fed were a government institution, then would it have (assuming this is the case) defended itself against its destruction? Many programs and departments in the government have been cut, there is no reason for them to fight back if the government doesn't need them.

http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/executiveorder11110.htm

Even the last one to trust about the truth of wether the Fed is privately owned, the Fed itself (whom would lie if they were privately owned to protect their ability to influence) admits that the 12 Fed banks are owned by investors (private commercial banks) who receive dividends, and have the ability to elect board members... They also claim that they are not privately owned, but rather owned by the people of the US. What they really mean is that some people in the US own commercial banks, which in turn hold Fed stock, receive dividends, and elect board members. But I'm sure that the commercial banks aren't restricted to the US.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqfrbanks.htm

If you want to get info from unofficial sources, here you go:
http://www.worldnewsstand.net/today/articles/fedprivatelyowned.htm
http://www.sonic.net/sentinel/naij2.html
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/Secrets_of_the_Federal_Reserve/secrets_of_the_federal_reserve_TC.htm
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?noframes;read=33955
http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view/frcourt.html
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Fed_reserve.htm
http://www.federal-reserve.net/
http://theunjustmedia.com/Banking & Federal Reserve/The Federal Reserve is Privately owned.htm
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/138390.php
http://www.conservativeusa.org/fed.htm
http://members.fortunecity.com/brianshouse/federalreserve.html


here's a more official source, leaning towards the Fed being privately owned, as it takes into account the court case against the fed.
http://www.answers.com/topic/fed-federal-reserve-system


Here's some more quotes
http://www.freedomdomain.com/bankquot.html
 
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  • #53
The Fed Reserve IS privately owned, to quote from EV's attachment
As 29 year veteran of the CIA, Captain Gunther Russbacher put it, “In our circles it became widely known that the Fed’s principle owners, or stockholders, as they prefer to be called, were the Rothschild Banks of London and Berlin; Lazard Brothers Banks of Paris; Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy, Warburg Bank of Hamburg and Amsterdam; Lehman Brothers Bank of New York; and Goldman, Sachs Banks of New York; Kuhn, Loeb Bank of New York; Chase Manhattan Bank of New York. These interests own and operate the Federal Reserve System through approximately three hundred stockholders, all of whom are very well known to each other, and frequently are related.”
To argue it is not a private organisation because they make payments to the gov't is as ridiculous as claiming all companies are departments of the gov't because they pay taxes. :rolleyes:
Argue by all means the Fed Reserve is a good thing but please don't try to justify your opinions on this strawman.
 
  • #54
This thread is pointless. Who cares if the FED is or isn't privately owned? The money and banking system of the US actually works, which is the only thing that matters. For every website that claims that the FED is privately owned you can find a website that will claims that this is a myth such as this site:http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/FRS-myth.htm (which is a report submitted to Congress). One thing is certain- who actually controls the decisions of the FED? The board of governors does, and the members of that board are publicly appointed.
 
  • #55
gravenewworld said:
This thread is pointless. Who cares if the FED is or isn't privately owned? The money and banking system of the US actually works, which is the only thing that matters. For every website that claims that the FED is privately owned you can find a website that will claims that this is a myth such as this site:http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/FRS-myth.htm (which is a report submitted to Congress). One thing is certain- who actually controls the decisions of the FED? The board of governors does, and the members of that board are publicly appointed.
Yes, slave labor worked very well too..
You can see the elusive of this FAQ:
http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqfrbanks.htm#6
Are the Federal Reserve Banks private companies?
The Federal Reserve Banks, created by an act of Congress in 1913, are operated in the public interest rather than for profit or to benefit any private group.
Commercial banks that are members of the Federal Reserve System hold stock in the Reserve Bank in their region, but they do not exercise control over the Reserve Bank or the Federal Reserve System. Holding stock in a regional Reserve Bank does not carry with it the kind of control and financial interest that holding publicly traded stock affords, and the stock may not be sold or traded. Member banks do, however, receive a fixed 6 percent dividend annually on their stock and elect six of the nine members of the Reserve Bank's board of directors.
Although they are set up like private corporations and member banks hold their stock, the Federal Reserve Banks owe their existence to an act of Congress and have a mandate to serve the public. Therefore, they are not really "private" companies, but rather are "owned" by the citizens of the United States.
Are Federal Reserve Bank employees considered government employees?
No. Employees of the Federal Reserve Banks are not government employees. They are paid as part of the expenses of their employing Reserve Bank.
http://www.ny.frb.org/aboutthefed/org_nydirectors.html
Board of Directors
Terms expire December 31 of the year indicated.
Class A elected by member banks to represent member banks
Jill M. Considine (bio) 2007
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
The Depository Trust Company
Charles V. Wait (bio) 2005
President, Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the Board
The Adirondack Trust Company
Sanford I. Weill (bio) 2006
Chairman
Citigroup Inc.
Class B elected by member banks to represent the public
Richard S. Fuld, Jr. (bio) 2007
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc.
Denis M. Hughes (bio) 2006
President
New York State AFL-CIO
Marta Tienda (bio) 2005
Maurice P. During '22 Professor in Demographics Studies
Professor of Sociology and Public Affairs
Princeton University
Class C appointed by Board of Governors to represent the public
Loretta Lynch (bio) 2005
Partner
Hogan & Hartson L.L.P.
John Edward Sexton (bio) Chairman, 2007
President
New York University
Jerry I. Speyer (bio) Deputy Chairman, 2006
President and Chief Executive Officer
Tishman Speyer Properties
 
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  • #56
If all the new money tha FED puts in circulation has to be repaid plus interests, when is the money to pay the interest put in circulation?

80% of americans has mortage, credit cards, loans with private banks, and has to pay interest for that, if the banks "creates" the money it lent, where does the money to pay the interest came from??



Farmers produce food, industry manufacturers goods, and so on, but bankers only produce money.

Suppose there are only two businessmen in the whole country and they employ everyone else. they borrow $100 each, they pay $90 out in wages and expenses and allow $10 profit . That means the total purchasing power is $90 + $10 twice, i.e. $200. Yet to pay the banks they must sell all theyr produce for $210. If one of them succeeds and sells all his produce for $105, the other man can only hope to get $95. Also, part of his goods cannot be sold, as there is no money left to buy them.

He will still owe the bank $10 and can only repay this by borrowing more.
 
  • #57
Yes, slave labor worked very well too..

Now we are comparing the FED and the Money and banking system of the US to slavery? That is quite a stretch.

Are the Federal Reserve Banks private companies?
The Federal Reserve Banks, created by an act of Congress in 1913, are operated in the public interest rather than for profit or to benefit any private group.
Commercial banks that are members of the Federal Reserve System hold stock in the Reserve Bank in their region, but they do not exercise control over the Reserve Bank or the Federal Reserve System. Holding stock in a regional Reserve Bank does not carry with it the kind of control and financial interest that holding publicly traded stock affords, and the stock may not be sold or traded. Member banks do, however, receive a fixed 6 percent dividend annually on their stock and elect six of the nine members of the Reserve Bank's board of directors.
Although they are set up like private corporations and member banks hold their stock, the Federal Reserve Banks owe their existence to an act of Congress and have a mandate to serve the public. Therefore, they are not really "private" companies, but rather are "owned" by the citizens of the United States.


Thats right...but don't confuse the Board of Governors with the Board of directors of each regional bank. The board of governors are employees of the government.

You conviently forgot to quote this from the website you used as a source

What is the relationship of the Board of Governors to the Federal Reserve Banks?
In public debate prior to passage of the Federal Reserve Act, some private-sector bankers expressed concern that a central bank governed by a Board of Governors appointed by the government would not be sufficiently responsive to the needs of the financial community. Certain agrarian interests, on the other hand, felt that an independent central bank would yield too much control over monetary affairs to the private banks. As a result, the Federal Reserve System was structured with two levels of authority--the Board of Governors, located in Washington, D.C., has a centralized and supervisory public influence over the Reserve Banks, while the individual Reserve Banks maintain narrower control over their own day-to-day operations.

The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System is a government agency. Its employees are employees of the federal government, paid in accordance with federal government pay scales, and part of the federal employee retirement system. The premises are federal government property. The seven Board members are appointed by the President with advice and consent of the Senate in the same fashion as other government appointees.
(from the link i posted earlier.)



This link that you posted-http://www.ny.frb.org/aboutthefed/org_nydirectors.html only lists the Board of directors for the NY Regional Bank only. These people are not the same as the board of governors of the entire federal reserve system.

Here is how the fed is set up Board of Gov.-----> They control the 12 regional banks------> The 12 banks have 9 directors, 6 of which are elected by the bank that owns it.
 
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  • #58
In the 1982 case, Lewis v. United States, the Ninth Circuit Federal Court of Appeals stated that the "Federal reserve banks are not federal instrumentalities for purposes of a Federal Torts Claims Act, but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations.". The opinion also went on to state that "The Reserve Banks have properly been held to be federal instrumentalities for some purposes."
 
  • #59
gravenewworld said:
Now we are comparing the FED and the Money and banking system of the US to slavery? That is quite a stretch.

Well, consider being born on land you can't escape that someone else (or a group of people) owns, and consider that that person(s) is not warm-hearted and hence demands that you pay them in order to live on their land (which you can't escape since you don't have the money to travel). You then work out some deal such that you can pay them by doing work for them, like cleaning up their land, or building a building, or raising cattle, or whatever you agree to do that you think you can do best. Then since that person or persons don't care about your humanity, they see you as inferior, and desire to make your circumstances such that you can never earn enough money to travel outside their land, so that they can use your labor to do things for them. Is this not slavery? Sure you get to choose what job you want, but you never get to own anything yourself, you're always stuck in their pocket, needing to use their resources. This is called feudalism, and it is the case of the american government to the owners of the money it uses. Since it can't get out of debt, it is a slave to the demands of its debtors. America must pay the interest the Fed demands or else the Fed can restrict the money circulation, cause bank runs and thus cause a depression.

The Fed can cause upswings and downswings in the economy at their will, they control the prices of nearly everything in America. They are in essence more powerful than America. Combine the efforts of the Fed with political efforts, and they can plunge the nation into wars by manipulating the emotions of the poeple so that they gain favor in their goals. They can cause a stagnant economy, thus making people uneasy and restless, ready to listen to authority to try and understand what is going on, and the politicans can propose reasons that work towards their Unknown Secret Agendas (USA) as to what is going on, and the people will accept them more than if things were running correctly. It's like feeling as though you are comming down with a cold, so you go to the doctor, and the doctor tells you that you're just under stress, so you buy that as being the reason and forget about the whole comming down with a cold idea. As long as the causes are ambiguous to the laymann (general public), they will accept ambiguous solutions, and more often than not, the (corrupt) politicians will offer ideas that seem kinda out there at first, but as they begin executing that plan, the Fed loosens it's restriction, and the economy starts running correctly again, so the public accept the solution as being the correct one. Keep in mind I'm only speaking of the corrupt people in the Fed and in politics, there are many good people in politics, probably more so than in the Fed, mainly because the Fed has less people.

Like Cypher said in the Matrix when he was eating the steak that wasn't real "ignorence is bliss. Throw me in the ole' powerplant, and make me rich, I don't care." So to ignore the possibilities is to stick your head in the sand like an ostrich. All i ask is that you consider these things, and if there is ever a movement towards changing our money system to one where the people create their own money (like greenbacks), support it. Or if there is a movement to back currency with silver like what JFK tried to do, get in the line of fire for that president! I know I will. But silver is only a step towards greenbacks I believe, since silver can still be hoarded, although its much more diffacult to hoard than gold. ie, if you have all the gold or silver, you can set the price, and everyone else is your slave. Thats no good, so fiat is a better choice, and public issuance is perfect.
 
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  • #60
The Fed can cause upswings and downswings in the economy at their will, they control the prices of nearly everything in America. They are in essence more powerful than America. Combine the efforts of the Fed with political efforts, and they can plunge the nation into wars by manipulating the emotions of the poeple so that they gain favor in their goals. They can cause a stagnant economy, thus making people uneasy and restless, ready to listen to authority to try and understand what is going on, and the politicans can propose reasons that work towards their Unknown Secret Agendas (USA) as to what is going on, and the people will accept them more than if things were running correctly. It's like feeling as though you are comming down with a cold, so you go to the doctor, and the doctor tells you that you're just under stress, so you buy that as being the reason and forget about the whole comming down with a cold idea. As long as the causes are ambiguous to the laymann (general public), they will accept ambiguous solutions, and more often than not, the (corrupt) politicians will offer ideas that seem kinda out there at first, but as they begin executing that plan, the Fed loosens it's restriction, and the economy starts running correctly again, so the public accept the solution as being the correct one. Keep in mind I'm only speaking of the corrupt people in the Fed and in politics, there are many good people in politics, probably more so than in the Fed, mainly because the Fed has less people.


Believe what you will...but politics and economics do not mix. I am here only to discuss economics, not politics.

The Fed can cause upswings and downswings in the economy at their will, they control the prices of nearly everything in America.

Really? Since when are prices not controlled by the basic laws of supply and demand? I have had extensive training as an undergraduate in economics, but your posts simply do not contain economic facts, only political arguments which I am not here to discuss. I guess now would be a great time to explain the neutrality of money in the dynamic competitive equilibrium model of the economy :smile: . Any respectable economist will tell you this-- GDP influences the supply of money, the supply of money does not move to stimulate the growth of GDP. This is what the majority of the public confuses...
 

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