Organisms or Consciousness: Which Came First?

  • Thread starter Thread starter sameandnot
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Egg
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the philosophical question of whether organisms or consciousness came first, exploring the relationship between the two concepts. Participants examine this issue from various angles, including evolutionary perspectives, definitions of consciousness, and the implications of attributing consciousness to different life forms.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether consciousness is a characteristic of organisms or if organisms are a characteristic of consciousness.
  • One participant argues that existence must come first, stating that a non-existent organism or consciousness cannot be a prime cause.
  • Another viewpoint suggests that organisms and consciousness may have evolved in parallel, with consciousness increasing alongside the complexity of organisms.
  • Some participants express confusion about the question, questioning the consciousness of simpler life forms like worms, plants, and bacteria.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of consciousness, with some proposing that it is a response to the environment, implying that all life may possess some form of consciousness.
  • A participant introduces the idea that consciousness might be received rather than produced by the brain, suggesting that consciousness came first.
  • The need for a clear definition of "organism" is raised, indicating the complexity of the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with no clear consensus on whether organisms or consciousness came first. Multiple competing perspectives remain, and the discussion is characterized by uncertainty and differing interpretations of consciousness.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of defining terms such as "organism" and "consciousness," indicating that differing definitions may influence the discussion. There is also a recognition of the complexity involved in attributing consciousness to various life forms.

sameandnot
Messages
301
Reaction score
0
what came first? organisms or consciousness?

this argument is a little different than the "chicken or the egg" bit...
we get around the "chicken or the egg" by recognizing evolution.

but, let's go back a little farther...

is consciousness a characterisitc of organisms? or are organisms a characteristics of consciousness?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
sameandnot said:
what came first? organisms or consciousness?
this argument is a little different than the "chicken or the egg" bit...
we get around the "chicken or the egg" by recognizing evolution.
but, let's go back a little farther...
is consciousness a characterisitc of organisms? or are organisms a characteristics of consciousness?

Attributing consciousness to lower organisms (let's define premammal to be lower) tends to rob the word of its usual meaning. If a bee is conscious then so, in my opinion, is a thermostat.
 
sameandnot said:
what came first? organisms or consciousness?
Neither, Existence came first. A non-existent organism or consciousness as a first cause-effect is a condradiction of terms. Before a thing can be a prime cause, it first must exist. The Primacy of Existence is an axiom upon which all further thinking (philosophy) must be developed.
 
Interesting question. Is there anything to suggest they didn't evolve equally along parallel paths? In other words, organisms evolved and thus the increase in consciousness was equal to the increase in complexity of the organism.
 
Q_Goest said:
Interesting question. Is there anything to suggest they didn't evolve equally along parallel paths? In other words, organisms evolved and thus the increase in consciousness was equal to the increase in complexity of the organism.
Consciousness evolves much as life itself; in stages of complexity. If we describe consciousness as awareness then this implies sensory organs and perception, (something to be aware of and something to be aware with), therefore such organisms must evolve before consciousness can take place.
 
Last edited:
I'm a bit confused by the apparent simplicity of the question.

Does anyone believe that worms or plants or fungi or diatoms or bacteria are conscious?

How can anyone seriously wonder if consciousness came before organisms?
 
DaveC426913 said:
I'm a bit confused by the apparent simplicity of the question.
Does anyone believe that worms or plants or fungi or diatoms or bacteria are conscious?
How can anyone seriously wonder if consciousness came before organisms?
I believe this must result from a failure to recognize the meaning and nature of consciousness, possibly from a desire to escape the responsibility that arises from a consciousness which is accompanied by reason and choice.
 
anthropomorphists.

what is consciousness, if not the response, of an entity, to its environment, founded in the awareness of said environment, by said entity?

-responsive awareness...

Q_Goest, you are the closest, and most probably correct. we see it most clearly.

consciousness does not mean individual self-consciousness. if i am conscious, then my cat is conscious, and a bee is conscious, in similar fashion. it is, perhaps, impossible to say, which came first, as they are, perhaps, mutually arising.

get out (over) yourselves, ego-centric humans.
 
Last edited:
DaveC426913 said:
I'm a bit confused by the apparent simplicity of the question.
Does anyone believe that worms or plants or fungi or diatoms or bacteria are conscious?
How can anyone seriously wonder if consciousness came before organisms?

People have a hard time imagining non-existence. This in itself is amusing to me
 
  • #10
sameandnot said:
anthropomorphists.
what is consciousness, if not the response, of an entity, to its environment, founded in the awareness of said environment, by said organism?
-responsive awareness...
Q_Goest, you are the closest, and most probably correct. we see it most clearly.

I agree, but according to this statement, is all life conscious(as having responsive awareness)?

Personally i think the radio analogy is a good one: that consciousness is not produced by the brain, but received by it. Just like a radio receives radiowaves. So I think consciousness came first.
 
  • #11
good point, pit2.

what's our definition of "organism"? we must find the essence of what it means to be defined an organism.
 
  • #12
sameandnot said:
get out (over) yourselves, ego-centric humans.
An attitude like this will certainly not be conducive to productive discussion.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
4K
Replies
9
Views
4K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
6K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
5K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K