Origin of Indo-Europeans Found -- Lower Volga

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the origins of the Indo-European group, particularly focusing on recent findings related to Yamnaya DNA in the Lower Volga region. Participants explore the implications of this evidence for understanding the historical narratives surrounding Indo-European languages and their speakers, including connections to the concept of "Aryans" and genetic traits in ancient populations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Historical

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the Yamnaya DNA findings support the idea that the Indo-European group's origin is in the Lower Volga region.
  • Others challenge the association of the Yamnaya with the term "Aryans," suggesting that the historical context of this label is rooted in 19th-century myths rather than scientific evidence.
  • One participant raises the question of whether the Yamnaya contributed to genetic traits such as lighter skin and lactose tolerance in Europeans, linking these traits to environmental adaptations.
  • A participant references Kevin MacLean's YouTube content, which discusses the Proto-Indo-Europeans and their migrations, while noting the lack of verified academic credentials for MacLean.
  • Another participant shares observations from a visit to Portugal, suggesting a connection between local populations and Celtic ancestry, while also speculating about other potential influences from regions like Lebanon or Cyprus.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with some agreeing on the significance of the Yamnaya findings while others contest the implications of these findings regarding the concept of "Aryans." The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives on the origins and characteristics of Indo-European speakers.

Contextual Notes

Some claims about genetic traits and historical migrations depend on specific interpretations of archaeological and genetic data, which may not be universally accepted. The discussion includes references to various sources, but the validity and reliability of these sources are not uniformly agreed upon.

Hornbein
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It has long been supposed that the origin of the Indo-European group was north of the Caucasus. Now we have physical evidence thereof.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/st...ndo-european-languages-spoken-by-40-of-world/

Traces of Yamnaya DNA are found wherever Indo-European languages are spoken. The homeland of the Yamnaya was located by matching with ancient DNA retrieved from graves in the Lower Volga region.

Are these the Aryans?
 
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Hornbein said:
Are these the Aryans?
Probably not as 19th Century linguists promulgated the Aryan myth. As myth, though, "Aryans" may take on any chacteristics deemed worthy by the mythmakers.

This article from NYT describes new DNA evidence in comparison to current linguistic developments. As for Aryans:

As the Indo-European debate advances, one thing is clear: Our understanding of its history now stands in stark contrast to the racist myths that once surrounded it. Nineteenth-century linguists called the original speakers of Indo-European Aryans, and some writers later pushed the notion that ancient Aryans were a superior race. ...

But Dr. Reich said that studies on ancient DNA show just how bankrupt these Aryan stories were. “There’s all sorts of mixtures and movements from places that these myths never imagined,” he said. “And it really teaches us that there’s really no such thing as purity.”
 
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What’s interesting is whether the Yamnaya brought the genes for white skin and lactose tolerance. Europeans 8000 years ago were dark-skinned but lighter skin allows greater vitamin D absorption in colder climates (so I guess in that way it’s superior). Lactose tolerance confers an obvious advantage after the domestication of animals

https://www.science.org/content/article/how-europeans-evolved-white-skin
 
Kevin MacLean attempts to answer the question, Who Were the Proto-Indo-Europeans? On his Youtube channel (Fortress of Lugh), he produces videos on ancient cultures and languages. Fortress of Lugh was a TV program produced in England and aired in 2017.




A captivating overview of the origins and characteristics of the Proto-Indo-Europeans, as well as theories regarding how they managed to spread through Europe and Asia. A new theory of the origins of the language released in July 2023 is also discussed and challenged. 00:00 - Intro02:19 - Discovery of Indo-European07:37 - Origins of the Indo-Europeans12:33 - Forest to Steppe16:37 - The Early Steppe22:16 - The Yamnaya & Corded Ware35:13 - The Caucasus Hunter Gatherers and the New Indo-European origin theory

One site claims, "Kevin MacLean has an educational background in Greek, Celtic and Roman history, archaeology, languages and philosophy and a passion for undergoing intense and independent research to shed new light on ancient ideas while deepening appreciation for ancient and living cultures." However I have not found any authentic academic CV. Nevertheless he provides an interesting perspective.

One has to look at the migrations of peoples out of Africa to the north into Europe through the Balkans and western side of the Baltic, through the Caucasus and through southern Asia, what is not Iran, Paksitan and India.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migrations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-modern_human_migration

See also - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeogenetics



A perspective on the Irish and migration of 'Celts' from W Europe into the British Isles around 2500 BC, or about 4500 years ago. The Neolithic period in the British Isles lasted from c. 4100 to c. 2,500 BC.[1] Constituting the final stage of the Stone Age in the region, it was preceded by the Mesolithic and followed by the Bronze Age. Ref on neolithic England - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_British_Isles. And there were subsequent migrations into what is now Ireland.


 
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In my recent visit to Portugal I saw many who appeared to be Celts. Kinky red hair and freckles. Sure enough, I read that

Early in the first millennium BC, waves of Celts invaded Portugal from Central Europe and inter-married with the local populations, forming different tribes.

Others could have been from Lebanon or Cyprus.
 

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