Outside Space-time sci-fi genres

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Main Question or Discussion Point

I'm interested in all movies with themes or genres about us being visited by visitors
who operate outside the limits of our space-time continuum yet have the ability to cross
over into our reality. Try to imagine the guys of Dark City but operating outside time.

Have you seen any movies or tv series (Outer Limits, Twilight Zone) like it?

I plan to write science fiction stories revolving on the ideas too. I want to know what concepts I could use to roughly describe the physics (in a fun way). We can't use dark matter or shape dynamics to "explain" the intermingling realities and timelines because they are still bound by time in General Relativity so can't desychronize. Could we use idea of normal universe with normal time linked to a multiverse world with clocks that beats other rates that is connected to our world by some kind of Rosen Einstein bridge or wormhole? But this seems clichés or common already. What other sci-fi explanations that one can use that is creative? that can rival any proposed by Barbour, Smolin or Rovelli? Can you give one example? Remember this is science fiction just for fun so use anything you can imagine...
 

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  • #2
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There is a TNG episode where life forms living in "subspace" kidnap and return crew members for examinations, and a battle with such a species in VOY. And DS9 is practically an entire series about "wormhole living forms" as an alternative thread if stories get stuck. On a few other occasions in various series, it's the other way around: people use "phase shifts" to either become invisible or able to pass through solids.
 
  • #3
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There is a TNG episode where life forms living in "subspace" kidnap and return crew members for examinations, and a battle with such a species in VOY. And DS9 is practically an entire series about "wormhole living forms" as an alternative thread if stories get stuck. On a few other occasions in various series, it's the other way around: people use "phase shifts" to either become invisible or able to pass through solids.
What's TNG? VOY? the acronyms don't come out in google. I only know DS9 as Deep Space Nine.. what episode and season is the "wormhole living forms" thing?

I want to explore the sci-fi idea of intruders that live in the past, present, future simultaneously in their own realm or one that knows no time. And how they behave when they interact our world. Like how they could get used to our time flowing sequentially. I want to my sci-fi readers to ponder on the mystery of time and how it is not the Newtonian idea of it flowing at same rate throughout the universe like thought of by ordinary man in the street.
 
  • #4
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What's TNG?
Star Trek: The Next Generation. Season 6 - Episode 5 - Schisms.
VOY?
Star Trek: Voyager. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_8472
the acronyms don't come out in google. I only know DS9 as Deep Space Nine.. what episode and season is the "wormhole living forms" thing?
They are basically there all the time, i.e. in each episode, although they do not appear in each episode. However, they belong to the permanently available characters. My hypothesis is, that beside adding some special mystery, they serve a third line of story telling. All episodes, regardless of which tv-show have at least two lines of story telling: primary - what an episode is all about, secondary - a side story, usually created around some inter human activities or relations. And with the wormhole life forms (prophets), they have a third alternative as permanently available backup solution, if one of the others come to an end or get stuck.
"The Prophets had no sense of linear time, so it was likely that they lived outside of the normal space-timecontinuum ..."
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Prophet
I want to explore the sci-fi idea of intruders that live in the past, present, future simultaneously in their own realm or one that knows no time.
... which is a pretty good description of the prophets in DS9, except they aren't intruders.
And how they behave when they interact our world. Like how they could get used to our time flowing sequentially.
In DS9 they don't. "Linearity" is so to say a curse, a stigma.
I want to my sci-fi readers to ponder on the mystery of time and how it is not the Newtonian idea of it flowing at same rate throughout the universe like thought of by ordinary man in the street.
I would at least watch the DS9 episodes beforehand, just to see what's already done and what not. A Google search "DS9 episodes + prophets" brought up a few episodes. Also be aware of the fact, that the time travel motive has been adopted in dozens of shows hundreds of times, so it will be a challenge not to tell another one or even by chance copy an old one.

Anyway, think of the trick with the multiple parallel stories! It makes stuff more interesting and is always a fall back scenario.
 
  • #5
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Star Trek: The Next Generation. Season 6 - Episode 5 - Schisms.Star Trek: Voyager. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_8472
They are basically there all the time, i.e. in each episode, although they do not appear in each episode. However, they belong to the permanently available characters. My hypothesis is, that beside adding some special mystery, they serve a third line of story telling. All episodes, regardless of which tv-show have at least two lines of story telling: primary - what an episode is all about, secondary - a side story, usually created around some inter human activities or relations. And with the wormhole life forms (prophets), they have a third alternative as permanently available backup solution, if one of the others come to an end or get stuck.
"The Prophets had no sense of linear time, so it was likely that they lived outside of the normal space-timecontinuum ..."
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Prophet

... which is a pretty good description of the prophets in DS9, except they aren't intruders.

In DS9 they don't. "Linearity" is so to say a curse, a stigma.

I would at least watch the DS9 episodes beforehand, just to see what's already done and what not. A Google search "DS9 episodes + prophets" brought up a few episodes. Also be aware of the fact, that the time travel motive has been adopted in dozens of shows hundreds of times, so it will be a challenge not to tell another one or even by chance copy an old one.

Anyway, think of the trick with the multiple parallel stories! It makes stuff more interesting and is always a fall back scenario.
Wow thanks.. I'll have so many episodes to watch then this weekend. But I want the thing not to be occurring in Star Trek but right now in our present age and culture. And it's not exactly time travel. I want to relate it to the Men in Black and their poltergeists servants. Since this topic is very broad and others have ideas of it already. Can't any producers out there make a good tv series of movie out of this. I want mine to focus on the physics of time so the audience would be introduced to General Relativity, Shape Dynamics and other cutting edge theory. Have you come across other tv episodes (beside Star Trek) with the following description of the intruders:

"In many of the cases outlined here I have pointed out the
entities' obsession with time. Their behavior as described by
various witnesses further suggests their problems in adjusting to
our time frame. For example, their rapid-fire unintelligible
"language" noted by witnesses all over the world as sounding like
"a speeded up phonograph record" could be caused by their failure
to adjust to our time cycle when they enter, our space-time continuum.
They are talking at a faster rate because their time is
different from ours. When they manage to adjust, they have to
forcibly slow themselves down, articulating their words slowly, in
a singsong manner. For high-speed radio transmissions we record
signals at a normal speed, then broadcast the tape at a very high
speed. The receiver records it at the same high speed and then
slows the tape down again to play it back. Our entities are like
those radio receivers, playing back the message at slow speeds
until they hit upon a speed we can interpret.

The entities also foul up in other ways. They arrive in clothes
that are out of style, or not yet in style. Their vehicles are out of
date. If they use slang, they might come up with archaic terms like
"twenty-three Skidoo" or "hubba hubba." The poor bastards not
only fail to understand who or what they are, but also where they
are or what time period they're in. Some of these mistakes seem
intentional and have some allegorical purpose. But others seem to
be just...mistakes."

Are the "prophets" in Deep Space Nine like this? I'll buy the series later but if you have better ones. Let me know. Understanding Time is the most critical and interesting aspect of our age now and more science fiction stories that explore it would be very nice especially if physics topics would be introduced bit by bit.
 
  • #6
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IIRC, the classic '101' for this is Abbot's Flatland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland
Then go via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytope
to...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-dimensional_space
and... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-polytope

Make sure you keep your correct 'handedness' of sugars and amino acids, lest you starve amidst plenty...
-
FWIW, I invoked such in a whimsical story where the protagonist progressively mind-games the bizarre cult that's kidnapped her by 'channelling' ancient Martian arthropods, some-what per ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quatermass_and_the_Pit_(film)

"Tessseract..."
"Uh, yes, Ma'am."
"Sssimple eyesss cannot visssualissse sssuch ssspacesss within ssspacesss..."
"Uh, yes, Ma'am."
"My Anssscessstors travelled thusss: It isss not the bessst way to travel between ssstarsss, it isss the only way..."
Joe's eyes narrowed. "Bigger on the inside, Ma'am ?"
"Sssuffissscient unto a ssswarm..."
"Yes, Ma'am." He nodded politely.
"Essscher Antsss..."
 
  • #7
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I watched Star Trek Deep Space 9 season 1 episode 20 titled "In the hands of the Prophets".. but halfway watching it.. I switched to another tv series called "Person of Interest" starring Jim Caviezel. I found the DS9 episode to be so boring... boring in the sense it's quite unrealistic... and the wormhole life forms idea seem not to be so interesting because they are not intruders and don't give you horrors.

I'm looking for movie or sci-fi stories where the beings who live either without time or running in different time rates are intruders.. the following image is from people who reported manipulated by reptilian beings peering through an interdimensional portal which opened in their bedrooms. It says so much that these kind of images haunt people so they either hallucinated it, etc. and putting these in movies can give more people the scare they crave.

aNd8rM.jpg


Aren't J.J. Abrams, Steven Spielberg, Cameroon, and other big time sci-fi producers exposed to stories like this and won't they produce storyline like this that can give some people creeps that stays deep in the night? The Star Trek DS9 just made you sleep instead.

Remember Marvel Movie Studios is coming up with the X-factor movie next year that they described can scare people. Hope other producers do it too.
 

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  • #8
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I just watched the horror movie the Nun (2018) still showing worldwide today. It's about rift (or doorway) opening between our world and a place of evil.

Halfway watching it. I realized what if the place of evil has no time or with time running at different rates. I was looking for a movie with that theme that occurs on earth the other day and I thought I just watched it. And I also thought inside the cinema what if religious story of the devils bound in hell are allegory or metaphors of the realm where time flows unconventionally. In the dark ages,, they call it the devil.. at other times, they are the reptilians... the forms and terminology depending on culture and era.. these are great camouflage or decoys if the Star Trek wormhole life forms would decide to be intruders (in future episodes) and disguise using deceptions and misinformation.

Try to watch the Nun if you have time today. I'll get more star trek wormhole life forms episode to get more ideas and perhaps be entertained. I only found Season episode 20 so may not appreciate it much. If you know exactly the other DS9 episodes and season.. let me know so I can directly get the episodes (I can't seem to find this in the web).
 
  • #9
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I tried to finish episode 20 of season 1. The Prophets didn't even appear there but only from conversations. In the link fresh_42 gave, the Prophets stories were spread to the 7 seasons of Deep Space 9 and they are just too long.. so reading the summary about them:

"The Prophets, also known as "wormhole aliens" (mainly by non-Bajorans), were non-corporeal extra-dimensional entities that resided in the only stable wormhole known to exist, in the Bajoran system. The Prophets' origins remain unknown; "

Did they ever go back in time to the past in the stories? Because they are very similar to some phenomenon in our culture. Future DS9 episodes can explore these aspects.

This is especially so when the executive producer mentioned in the bottom of fresh_42 links that "and I think that we were one of the very few television shows that ventured into spiritual and religious areas, and, of course, as long as time has existed, stories about spiritual pursuits".

Let's not forget something which Gene and the executive producer could have missed: Something that has always been with us since the dawn of civilization. It is the foundation of all our religious and occult beliefs, of our philosophies, and our cultures. We may have something with us.. perhaps our next-door neighbors , part of another space-time continuum where life, matter and energy are radically different from ours. Ancient man knew this and recognized it. The original Biblical texts employed the word sheol, which meant invisible world. Somehow , the translators turned this into "hell" and gave it an entirely different meaning .

Do you know the ancient Chinese marked out the routes of the lights in the sky (LITS) and called them "dragon tracks" because, apparently, fearsome dragons appeared along with the mysterious lights. In a later age, these became fairy lights and were associated with the little people who actually plagued whole generations not only in Europe but also in North America.

During the witchcraft craze a few hundred years ago, people really thought they saw witches flying through the air ... with
lanterns hanging from the front of the brooms. Then there were the Airships craze in the late 19th century, and Foo Fighters in World War II and at present Spacecrafts mirages. There are dozens of other descriptions I don't want to mention now. Hint: they can disguise as spaceships and spacemen.

Did the Prophets in DS9 go back in time? In future episodes. They can create storylines where all of these appearances could be just manifestations of sinister Prophets factions who were disguising their activities in all our time period and trying to cover their agenda by misdirections or decoys. To avoid watching the entire 7 seasons of Deep Space 9 (which can take 130 hours straight without sleep). Just share the evil deeds the Prophets may have done. I want to know what deceptions they were capable of.
 
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This is my central question and concern.

Let's say sinister factions of the Prophets in DS9 (or other sci-fi intruders/conquerors) want to conquer other worlds. Remember their nature is formless and they can manipulate the space-time continuum better than us. How do they move and hide in the populations? If they encounter a planet in similar time period as we are now. And they travel as light-like objects in the atmosphere and regularly. How do they make sure the population serious members like scientists won't take reports of them seriously. They could disguise as venusians (space brothers, etc.) and spaceships (saucer, triangles, etc.). This is to discredit any reports about them. If they go to periods in the late 1800s.. they could disguise as air ships so people would think they are see only such and ignore the light-like objects which is their true form. If they go to the late middle ages. They could disguise or shapeshift as witches riding in brooms or as little people in Europe in the early middle age. If they go to the ancient times, they could disguise as dragons and monsters in the sky.. or in the biblical times as angels and flying chariots. Behind the deceptive appearance were these sinister factions of the Prophets (or whatever intruders or their true nature is). In military tactics.. what is this deception or tactical move or strategy called?

I want to see movies where the above theme and plot is explored. Is there happened to be movies already with such plots? Titles?
 
  • #11
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Lovecraft specialized in stuff like that.
 
  • #12
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Lovecraft specialized in stuff like that.
But Lovecraft passed way in 1937. Who else took over his genres.

I'd like to explore what forms or camouflage the DS9 wormhole life forms can take when they enter our modern era..

They can camouflage as all sorts of combinations of humanoid figures when they navigate on earth. For example:

8e6WGG.jpg


When these wormhole life forms intruder factions disguise as these (among the hundreds of combinations of humanoids they can take). They can easily navigate around the world at will as all witnesses would be automatically discredited. They can shapeshift as all sorts of shapes too from saucers to cigars to triangles. Since they are link to the minds of the witnesses.. they can easily make sure no pictures or videos would be taken so scientists won't take any serious interests and they can navigate and move amongst us at will.

You mean if Lovecraft were still alive.. he would make these stories? I want to read sci-fi stories along this lines.
 

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  • #13
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By the way. The latter part of the above came from the science fiction movie "The Mothman Prophecies" (starring Richard Gere). The "Mothman" were supposed to be creatures outside of our time and space which can somehow access our dimension that was why they could predict the future. Has no one seen the movie yet? I watched it again. Do you remember the story?

Anyone here living near Point Pleasant? There is even a Mothman statue there now. What's unique about this science fiction movie is it was supposed to be true story based on events that transpired there many decades ago. Maybe it's just urban legend? If you live near there, please ask around how the urban legend got born (if there is all there is to it).

It's near Halloween so I mention this again. Instead of ghouls and gremlins each year which gets boring.. maybe some want a date with these Mothmen and creatures straight from nightmare. Lol.
 
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By the way. The latter part of the above came from the science fiction movie "The Mothman Prophecies" (starring Richard Gere). The "Mothman" were supposed to be creatures outside of our time and space which can somehow access our dimension that was why they could predict the future. Has no one seen the movie yet? I watched it again. Do you remember the story?

Anyone here living near Point Pleasant? There is even a Mothman statue there now. What's unique about this science fiction movie is it was supposed to be true story based on events that transpired there many decades ago. Maybe it's just urban legend? If you live near there, please ask around how the urban legend got born (if there is all there is to it).

It's near Halloween so I mention this again. Instead of ghouls and gremlins each year which gets boring.. maybe some want a date with these Mothmen and creatures straight from nightmare. Lol.
Btw.. in the sc-fi movie and the book where the idea was acquired. All those who allegedly encountered the Mothman died afterwards.. as if they were harbingers of death. Therefore don't plan a date with them because it is a death wish. In our world. We have dogs and cats.. meaning not everything should conform to how we think. So perhaps outside of space and time, there were those things too.

This is why for those who live near Point Pleasant. Please convince us these are urban legend so we would feel safe and protected by the Higgs (God Particles) and embrace the Standard Model symmetries for comfort and sense of security.
 
  • #15
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Today is Halloween's day (or if you live in the west, it's tomorrow). We always think Halloween is for kids. But there are stuff that are for adults. Let's tackle this Mothman sighted by so many that they even made statues of it.

TnlwWF.jpg


All right. Many just believed they were giant birds. I want to know how large is the biggest bird or mammal which can hold wings? Some dinosaurs have wings but for mammal I think there are limits to how big the wing span can be because of muscles limit?

Let's hope they were just big birds. Because if they are not. Then they are the stuff of nightmare. When you run away from goblins gremlins and stay far away, you are already safe. But these Mothman.. myth says they are not bound by space or time and they can call you at phone late at night and aware of everything you do and know... and they can haunt you by poltergeist activity. This is why I don't want any extended interests in this because these are worse than any Halloween bogeyman.

Of course we will feel safer if these are just giant birds.. and details in the science fiction movie and books are just paranoia. In case you haven't watched the movie yet.. here it is.... https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/mothman_prophecies/
 

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  • #16
DaveC426913
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Try to imagine the guys of Dark City but operating outside time.
Interesting film. Can be summed in one sentence:

Truman's World, run by The Borg.
 
  • #17
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Today is bonafide Halloween night in the US where most of the participants reside. Have you come across Trick or Treat costumes of the winged Draco?

be6u8P.jpg


T0CJlo.jpg


If these are myths, where do you think they originated?

And they have wings too like the Mothman. Say, can large mammals really have wings, how big must the muscles be? Or it is anatomically impossible?

In the movie V in the 1990s, the aliens were reptilians.. but do they fly? Also is there any movie where the reptilian image is only a mirage or decoy of the true forms of whatever intruders walk amidst the population?
 

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  • #18
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Most myths begin as stories we tell and the stories become urban or pastoral legends and from there the people can't figure out if they're true or not and so decide that they are true (to be on the safe side of caution) and thus are borne the fears of the unknown.

The Monster of Gevaudan int the 1700's France is a good example:


There was even a movie made about it called Brotherhood of the Wolf:


Some theories were that it was a large dog or wolf or even a lion suitably disguised to make it more fearsome.

There's also a Sherlock Holmes mystery story The Hound of the Baskervilles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hound_of_the_Baskervilles

Which illustrates the notion that sometimes folks will use fear to keep people from prying into their nefarious business.

In two hundred years or so, we will look upon the Mothman, Draco and Bigfoot stories with some humor realizing that they were just exaggerations of events of the time.
 
  • #19
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Most myths begin as stories we tell and the stories become urban or pastoral legends and from there the people can't figure out if they're true or not and so decide that they are true (to be on the safe side of caution) and thus are borne the fears of the unknown.

The Monster of Gevaudan int the 1700's France is a good example:


There was even a movie made about it called Brotherhood of the Wolf:


Some theories were that it was a large dog or wolf or even a lion suitably disguised to make it more fearsome.

There's also a Sherlock Holmes mystery story The Hound of the Baskervilles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hound_of_the_Baskervilles

Which illustrates the notion that sometimes folks will use fear to keep people from prying into their nefarious business.

In two hundred years or so, we will look upon the Mothman, Draco and Bigfoot stories with some humor realizing that they were just exaggerations of events of the time.
I sure hope you are right because the alternative is unthinkable.

Unthinkable in the sense that there is the theory we are facing a faceless intruder that has mastery of space and time. They can disguise themselves as different entities depending on culture and era. For examples. In ancient times, they were vampires and werewolves.. and we laughed or looked upon them as humor thinking they were just exaggerations of the events of the time. In two hundred years or so.. we may look upon the Mothman, Draco, and Bigfoot stories with some humor too thinking they were just exaggerations of events of the time. But then in that future era. There may be new disguises, let say Holoman or Centauri creatures, or other decoys whose purpose is to make it so ridiculous that serious elements of society would just ridicule and ignore them.. while the faceless intruders walk behind the scenes under those safe disguises.

Of course this is not my theory. Have you seen the sci-fi movie "The Mothman Prophecies" and read the book. Those are exactly the theory presented. So when you have time, please try to watch the sci-fi movie, read the book so you can convince us they are all false and we will shall always be secure knowing only Standard Model manifestations are all there is in the world, and we are in control.
 
  • #20
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Yes, I’ve read about the Mothman stories and they are without any provable content. John Keels attempt at a sci-fi story where he catches your attention by saying it’s real. In the 1970s, there was a lot of buzz about UFOs, conspiracies and coverups mostly without any real substance. You don’t hear so much about UFOs nowadays except as the plot of some tv show.

You might like reading the Three Body Problem by Cicinho Liu. It’s a very imaginative and innovative sci-fi story with something that seems mythical that then begins to affect the earth. However, it’s a story and elements of it violate our understanding of physics and so we can be pretty sure it’s not real.
 
  • #21
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Yes, I’ve read about the Mothman stories and they are without any provable content. John Keels attempt at a sci-fi story where he catches your attention by saying it’s real. In the 1970s, there was a lot of buzz about UFOs, conspiracies and coverups mostly without any real substance. You don’t hear so much about UFOs nowadays except as the plot of some tv show.
Black triangles were not heard of in the 1970s or 1980s.. but they were commonly seen now.. And the authorities can only comment that they were just misidentifications of military crafts. Therefore if you were member of real off-world intruders. It's easy to navigate in the earth without calling unwanted attentions.. by shapeshifting your crafts to adapt with the cultural backdrop. so you shapeshift into Black Triangles so all witnesses accounts would be discredited by the authorities simply claiming they were just military crafts. In World War II. It's foo fighters. Etc. Etc.

But frankly. I don't care about it now. The universe is very big. We on earth are so divided that it won't make a difference if others would want to come here. They won't be worse than us. We are already one of the worse species in the universe.

You might like reading the Three Body Problem by Cicinho Liu. It’s a very imaginative and innovative sci-fi story with something that seems mythical that then begins to affect the earth. However, it’s a story and elements of it violate our understanding of physics and so we can be pretty sure it’s not real.
Interesting book. In the amazon review. It says: "Set against the backdrop of China's Cultural Revolution, a secret military project sends signals into space to establish contact with aliens. An alien civilization on the brink of destruction captures the signal and plans to invade Earth. Meanwhile, on Earth, different camps start forming, planning to either welcome the superior beings and help them take over a world seen as corrupt, or to fight against the invasion. The result is a science fiction masterpiece of enormous scope and vision.".

Yesterday I watched seen the movie "Hunter Killer".. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1846589/ Right now we have exceedingly overwhelming military hardware and war machineries. If there were real aliens. Would they come and engage us? In the Hunter Killer movie, you will get the idea that if the top chain of command is controlled, they control the entire military machineries.. so if real aliens were to invade, they can just infiltrate into society and control us from inside. This is why I found sci-fi about aliens invading earth on the open as quite boring and medieval. But with no other better entertainment.. it's better than nothing.
 
  • #22
Vanadium 50
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Is this thread about science fictions or about alien visitors?
 
  • #23
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Is this thread about science fictions or about alien visitors?
It's science fiction that involves not exactly aliens but something that co-inhabit with the earth since the beginning of recorded history.. which can operate outside of space and time. Plain alien visitors genres are quite boring nowadays. Something maybe along the line of:

From the dawn of time we came…moving silently down through the centuries. Living many secret lives, struggling to reach the time of the gathering, when the few who remain will battle to the last. No one has ever known we were among you…..until now.

but operating outside of space and time. If the science fiction ideas are not in the movies yet.. then any science fiction books that have potential to make it to movies.. any candidate anyone?
 

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