Person nifty with young tableaux sought

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter metroplex021
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Young
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Clebsch decomposition of the representation 3x3x3x3x3* in SU(3), particularly in the context of baryon structures and their theoretical implications. Participants explore the decomposition using Young tableaux and related group theory concepts, referencing historical papers and mathematical tools.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant recalls needing a Clebsch decomposition for 3x3x3x3x3* and connects it to Gell-Mann's work on quark models.
  • Another participant provides a link to a resource and outlines the process of determining the decomposition, noting that the baryon decomposition 3x3x3 is known to equal 10+8+8+1.
  • A subsequent reply states the result of 8x8 as 27 + 10 + 10bar + 8 + 8 + 1, leaving the 10x8 calculation to others.
  • Another participant asserts that there are no singlets in the product 10x8, referencing Slansky for verification.
  • Further discussion includes reasoning about the absence of singlets in 10x8 and the structure of the 8x8 product, with detailed combinatorial arguments presented.
  • One participant mentions using the Littlewood-Richardson rule and shares results from their Lie-algebra code for the 4q1q* case, providing a specific decomposition result.
  • A final post expresses gratitude for the assistance received from other participants.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants present various calculations and interpretations regarding the decomposition, with some agreeing on specific results while others challenge or refine earlier claims. No consensus is reached on the final decomposition details, and multiple views remain on the calculations involved.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include unresolved mathematical steps in the decomposition process and dependence on specific definitions and representations within SU(3) group theory.

metroplex021
Messages
148
Reaction score
0
Many years ago I was taught Young tableau but I can't for the life of me remember how to do it, but now I seem out of the blue to need a Clebsch decomposition! Does anyone who is nifty at these things know what the decomposition of 3x3x3x3x3* is in SU(3)?

(FWIW, the reason I'm asking this is because I'm reading one of Gell-Mann's first papers on the quark model, and he contemplates whether we could consider baryons to be made up of four quarks and an anti-quark. Now I'm wondering how the baryonic world would be different if they were!)

Thanks guys!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
I haven't read through this carefully but this seems to cover what you're looking for:

http://www.isv.uu.se/~rathsman/grouptheory/Beckman-Loffler-report.pdf

Basically it is about "putting the boxes" where they are allowed and see what you end up with. Then you will of course have to know which diagram corresponds to which representation and so on.

The "baryon" decomposition 3x3x3 is well known and is equal to 10+8+8+1. So all you have to do is take the product of this with a 3x3*. This in turn is the "meson" decomposition, equal to 3x3* = 8+1. Last step is then to take the product (10+8+8+1)x(8+1), which basically involves taking the products 8x8 and 10x8. And this I leave to you ;)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
8 x 8 is easy. It's 27 + 10 + 10bar + 8 + 8 + 1.

You're on your own for 10 x 8.
 
fzero said:
There aren't any singlets in 10 x 8

That's easy to see, because of the 10bar.

The 8x8 is also easy to "cheat" on. I know I need 64 elements. I need an asymmetric guy, the 27, and exactly one fully symmetric guy, the 1. So I have 36 left. I know from the 3-gluon vertex that there is an 8, leaving me 28.

If I want a 10, I need a 10bar, which leaves me another octet.

If I don't want a 10, I can't make 28 with combinations of 3's and 6's, which, like 10's must occur in pairs. If I add another 8, I get 20, and it still doesn't work. If I add two 8's, I have 12 left, which cannot be 3+3+3bar+3bar because there is only one fundamental representation, so the only two options are 27 + 10 + 10bar + 8 + 8 + 1 and 27 + 6 + 6bar + 8 + 8 + 8 + 1.

If you remember that there is a baryon decuplet, you know it's the first option and not the second.
 
One would use the Littlewood-Richardson rule, and there's a nice explanation of it in

Particle Data Group > Reviews, Tables, Plots > Mathematical Tools > SU(n) multiplets and Young diagrams
38.4. Coupling multiplets together (PDF page 3)

I used my Lie-algebra code on it, and I found all the results that everybody else here mentioned. For the 4q1q* case, I found

(3)4 * (3*) -> 35 + 3(27) + 4(10) + 2(10*) + 8(8) + 3(1)

Yes, 3 color singlets.
 
All of you are completely awesome, thanks so much for taking the time to help me out! ;)
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
5K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
5K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
Replies
16
Views
7K
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 33 ·
2
Replies
33
Views
6K
  • · Replies 54 ·
2
Replies
54
Views
8K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
7K