Photon number needless conservation, consolidation possible?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the possibility of combining multiple photons into a single photon with higher energy, exploring concepts from nonlinear optics and conservation laws. Participants examine theoretical frameworks, experimental implications, and the nature of photon interactions in various contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that, unlike leptons, photons do not require conservation, proposing that multiple photons could combine into a single, more energetic photon.
  • Another participant points out that processes like second harmonic generation exist, where pairs of photons at one frequency can be converted into a single photon at twice that frequency, adhering to energy and momentum conservation.
  • Concerns are raised about the conservation of spin in these processes, noting that the resulting higher frequency photons maintain an even superposition of spin values, which does not violate conservation laws.
  • Discussion includes the rarity of calculating scattering cross sections for these interactions in nonlinear optics, attributed to the longer wavelengths involved compared to high energy physics.
  • A participant mentions that while the ground state of a photon is 1-, it can be excited to other states with different spin and parity values, referencing nuclear de-excitation processes.
  • Reference is made to a research paper on high spin photon studies, indicating ongoing exploration in this area.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the feasibility of combining photons, with some supporting the existence of such processes in nonlinear optics while others raise questions about the implications of conservation laws. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the broader implications and potential applications of these concepts.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in calculating scattering cross sections for nonlinear optical interactions and highlight the differences in wavelength scales between nonlinear optics and high energy physics. There is also mention of the complexity of conservation laws in the context of photon interactions.

kiwaho
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We know lepton conservation law, that means multiple neutrinos can not be consolidate to big single neutrino.
But photon is boson not lepton, no need of conservation, does that mean it is possible to combine or fuse a bunch of photons into ONE big photon, or say, more energetic photon, i.e following reaction could be true?
γ1 + γ2 + γ3 + … γn = γbig
If possible, ideal optic lens can be used to focus photons to produce higher energy light, i.e. forced blue-shift. lot of amazing applications, e.g. make violet from visible light, doubling light frequency, etc.
And how many barns of cross section for above reaction?
Of course, energy and linear/angular momenta conservation should be obeyed, in this case, the reactant photons Jπ all are 1-, then resultant photon can be any integer spin and parity, such as 1+, 10-, ...
 
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You'll be happy to know that such processes do exist:

For example, in nonlinear optics, second harmonic generation at the quantum level involves pairs of photons at one frequency getting converted into single photons at twice the frequency. There's also sum frequency generation, and higher harmonic generation as well. These processes have both quantum mechanical and classical treatments in optics, but in the quantum mechanical process, photons can be exchanged for pairs or groups of other photons so long as total energy and momentum is conserved. Momentum conservation is tricky since wavelength depends on the index of refraction, but in the right materials, it can and has been done.

For example, green laser pointers (532nm) operate using second harmonic generation where pairs of photons at 1064nm get converted to photons at 532nm with a high degree of efficiency.
 
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As far as conservation of spin goes, photons that are linearly polarized are in an even superposition of +1 and -1 for the z-component of their spin angular momentum. Photons can in fact only have those values for spin angular momentum, so the higher frequency photons generated from combining pairs or groups of lower frequency photons will also have a z-component of spin in an even superposition of -1 and 1. This doesn't violate any conservation laws, since there are many ways for these z-components to add up to a net value of +1 or -1.

Calculating the scattering cross sections of these sorts of interactions seems to be very uncommon in nonlinear optics, perhaps because the wavelengths in nonlinear optics are so much longer than those in high energy physics (nearIR to near UV), and that fully classical treatments of many nonlinear optical processes (including multiple harmonic generation) already exist.
 
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jfizzix said:
As far as conservation of spin goes, photons that are linearly polarized are in an even superposition of +1 and -1 for the z-component of their spin angular momentum. Photons can in fact only have those values for spin angular momentum, so the higher frequency photons generated from combining pairs or groups of lower frequency photons will also have a z-component of spin in an even superposition of -1 and 1. This doesn't violate any conservation laws, since there are many ways for these z-components to add up to a net value of +1 or -1.

Calculating the scattering cross sections of these sorts of interactions seems to be very uncommon in nonlinear optics, perhaps because the wavelengths in nonlinear optics are so much longer than those in high energy physics (nearIR to near UV), and that fully classical treatments of many nonlinear optical processes (including multiple harmonic generation) already exist.
spin and parity of ground state of photon is 1-, but photon can seem to be excited to other states, where spin and parity can be changed to any value.
Most nuclear de-excitation in gamma photon emission can have 2 spin change, special nucleus can have as high as 8 spin. e.g. the gamma of Ta-180m is 8-(from 9- excited state to 1+ ground state.)
so 1- photon seems only to appear in atom level, but most 2- in nuclear level.
 

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