Planar orbit of planets around sun

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the mathematical and physical principles governing the planar orbits of planets around the sun, particularly focusing on the conditions under which multiple bodies can rotate in a single plane due to gravitational interactions. The scope includes theoretical considerations and conceptual clarifications regarding the dynamics of three or more point masses.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that three points determine a plane, suggesting that three bodies will always lie in a plane, although the orientation of that plane may vary in different coordinate systems.
  • Others question whether three point masses can be guaranteed to rotate in a single plane without collisions, proposing that mutual gravitational attraction might play a role.
  • One participant suggests that while three bodies can be described as lying in a plane, the specific orientation of that plane may not be fixed unless additional conditions are met.
  • Another participant introduces the idea that if the bodies have different orbital radii and their axes of rotation are perpendicular, they may not necessarily converge to a single plane without collisions.
  • There is a suggestion that the dynamics of the system could be simplified by considering four points, but it is noted that they do not necessarily lie in a single plane unless influenced by a central force.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether three point masses will naturally rotate in a single plane without collisions. While some agree on the geometric principle that three points define a plane, others contend that additional factors, such as gravitational interactions, are necessary for establishing a stable orbital plane.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the assumption that gravitational interactions are the sole factor influencing the motion of the bodies, and the discussion does not resolve the complexities of how these interactions lead to a stable planar configuration.

Shubham135
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Imagine thee planets interacting through gravity, mathematically how should they come and rotate in a same plane, like planets and sun?
 
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Shubham135 said:
Imagine thee planets interacting through gravity, mathematically how should they come and rotate in a same plane, like planets and sun?

 
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Three points determine a plane.
 
A.T. said:

sir i heard all that the galaxies started as dust and then it cooled and due to angular momentum conservation it happrnd, but my question is that if three point masses are interacting can you give me an equation that tells that they will eventually rotate in a single plane?
 
Vanadium 50 said:
Three points determine a plane.
but rotation can be in two planes, think about it, a point fixed at origin second point rotating aroung it in xy plane and third one in yz plane.
 
Shubham135 said:
sir i heard all that the galaxies started as dust and then it cooled and due to angular momentum conservation it happrnd, but my question is that if three point masses
It applies to 3 particles too, but collisions are less likely.
 
Vanadium 50 said:
Three points determine a plane.
I think the OP means a plane that contains the Sun too, and has a fixed orientation in an inertial frame.
 
Shubham135 said:
think about it

Good advice.

Three points determine a plane. Three bodies will always be in a plane. It is true that that plane may not be constant in a particular coordinate system (e.g. one where everything is moving up with some velocity) but that is always true.

If you are talking about three planets and the sun, you should say so and do it clearly.
 
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Vanadium 50 said:
Good advice.

Three points determine a plane. Three bodies will always be in a plane. It is true that that plane may not be constant in a particular coordinate system (e.g. one where everything is moving up with some velocity) but that is always true.

If you are talking about three planets and the sun, you should say so and do it clearly.
 
  • #10
I chose three points just to make the problem simpler you can aslo say it for four points they don't lie in a plane nessesarily but thry come in a plane if interacting through a central force
 
  • #11
A.T. said:
It applies to 3 particles too, but collisions are less likely.
So they don't come into a place through collisions ..sp how do they come in the plane?
 
  • #12
Shubham135 said:
So they don't come into a place through collisions ..sp how do they come in the plane?
I mean three particles..if collisions are less likely ..let say one has radius of orbit twise as big than the other and they rotate around sun with sun at center in circular orbits...and their axis of rotation are perpendicular..will they cone to an intermediate plane?
 
  • #13
A.T. said:
No.
so the collisions is the only culprit here? or can we say they come into plane through mutual graviational attraction?
 
  • #14
Shubham135 said:
I mean three particles..if collisions are less likely ..let say one has radius of orbit twise as big than the other and they rotate around sun with sun at center in circular orbits...and their axis of rotation are perpendicular..will they cone to an intermediate plane?
Without collisions, they won't necessarily tend towards one plane.
 

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