Playing around with the modulo operation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of the modulo operation, specifically exploring a pattern observed when the product of two numbers modulo a third number equals one. Participants examine the sequences generated by raising these numbers to powers modulo a given value, discussing potential proofs and implications of the observed patterns.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes a pattern where if (a*b) mod c = 1, then the sequences a^n mod c and b^n mod c appear to be reverses of each other.
  • Another participant highlights the significance of a and c being relatively prime in the first example provided.
  • A different participant offers a partial proof suggesting that if a^p = b^q for some powers p and q, then the sequences can be shown to be related through their multiplicative inverses.
  • One participant summarizes that if ab = 1, then a can be expressed as b^-1, leading to the conclusion that a^n = b^-n, indicating opposite directions in the sequences.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express interest in the observations and propose various interpretations and proofs, but there is no consensus on the completeness or correctness of the proofs provided. The discussion remains open-ended with multiple perspectives on the implications of the findings.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions about the conditions under which the patterns hold are not fully explored, and the proofs presented are described as partial, indicating that further clarification or completeness is needed.

Archosaur
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Hey guys,
I am by no means a mathematician, but I do have a decent eye for patterns, and I found a pretty cool one today. I was hoping one of you guys could tell me more about it.

As a general rule, I've found that if (a*b) mod c = 1, then the sequence a^n mod c is the reverse of the sequence b^n mod c.

For example, (7*8) mod 11 = 1
and 7^n mod 11= 7,5,2,3,10,4,6,9,8...
while 8^n mod 11= 8,9,6,4,10,3,2,5,7...

As another example, (56*24) mod 17 =1
and 56^n mod 17 = 5,8,6,13,14,2,10,16,12,9,11...
while 24^n mod 17= 11,9,12,16,10,2,14,13,6,8,5...

What do you all think about this? I'm willing to bet that all I've done is show a simple concept in a convoluted way, but I'm to fried to think critically about this any more.
 
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This is very interesting. For your first example, it is significant that 7 and 11 are relatively prime (no factors in common other than 1), and the same is true for 8 and 11.
 
Archosaur said:
Hey guys,
I am by no means a mathematician, but I do have a decent eye for patterns, and I found a pretty cool one today. I was hoping one of you guys could tell me more about it.

Hi Archosaur. Here's a partial proof that's very straight forward. (BTW, to save typing please take all equalities as " = modulo c" and all variables as positive integer in what follows).

1. Assume that we have some power of "a" that is equal to some power of "b", that is [itex]a^p = b^q = x[/itex] for some p,q. (I haven't shown under what conditions this is guaranteed to occur, so this is definitely only a partial proof).

2. Since [itex]ab = 1[/itex] then [itex]abx = x[/itex],

so [itex]ab b^p = a^p[/itex] and hence [itex]b^{p+1} = a^{q-1}[/itex], which proves the reversed nature of the two series.

Perhaps someone else will be able to provide a more complete proof.
 
Wow, thank you very much, uart! That was just the kick-start I needed to think about this more.
 
All modulo c: If ab = 1, then a= b^-1. So a^n=b^-n. The periodicity of the sequences assures that they are opposite. a^n = b^-n is going in the "opposite direction" to b^n.
 
Awesome, yes, this is what I ended up with. Thanks for your help, everyone!
 

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