Please update me on humanity's relation to the BIG question

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In summary: Yes, we know more than "Um this thing can come out of this other thing". We have a well-developed theory called Quantum Mechanics that describes the behavior of particles on a microscopic level. This theory is based on probability distributions and wave functions, and it has been extensively tested and proven to accurately predict observable phenomena.THE REAL QUESTION: Is there an extant theory which can take the EXACT state of a system in terms of its most basic KNOWN components and properties and then give its EXACT state at a later point in time? Is it theorized that no such equation exists that could produce such a result, even if it were possible to measure the actual state at a given time to such an accuracy? Is this only a
  • #1
Unidempicity
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OK, so this question really digs into the heart of determinism in the realm of quantum mechanics, specifically the standard model.

First let's expose my limited understanding as it exists at the moment: There are known quantities that must be conserved such as mass charge momentum etc, and force laws such as gravitation and the other three (which to the best of my knowledge are formalized en formula as symmetries on or fields proportional to specific properties). These forces are fundamentally described as particle exchanges and transformations which are fundamentally geometric. There is uncertainty in as much as the physical apparatus of measurement creates necessity of it. The current best interpretation for how these interactions occur on a particle exchange level is a probability distribution over all possible interactions.

My question is this: what is the meaning of all "possible" interactions. Does this mean: the uncertainty in the current known state means that there is a distribution over when and in which direction a photon will be emitted, OR does it mean: the only way to know which way a photon will be emitted in a PERFECTLY known state is to count up every way in which all known conservation laws are obeyed and that is all we can say about what will happen, OR in a PERFECTLY known state there is only ONE outcome that will obey all conservation laws, OR is it theorized that there are conservation laws that are in effect that are not presently known, so due to our lack of knowledge, we can only posit probability distributions, but even if stochastically sampled, they still obey all presently observable phenomena.

[OR (worst case) once the distributions over all possible conservation law compliant states (sequences?) are made, they need to be further pruned so as to obey force laws?]

A PROBLEM: It seems as if it were so that photon emission were the only means of transferring electromagnetic force, and if position and momentum vectors were perfectly continuous, and emission was only determined by the complete state of the omitter and anything that made precise contact with it, then the odds of anything actually interacting would be infinitesimal. Is this not an issue? Are particles not points? If not what are they? Wave packets? What does one wave packet do when it fuzzes into another wave packet? Are there laws for this kind of thing?

Do we know anything more than "Um this thing can come out of this other thing sometimes maybe I couldn't tell you when but um this gravity thing is ALWays true sometimes I think on the large scale at least something to do with probability I guess I really couldn't tell you.."

THE REAL QUESTION: Is there and extant theory which can take the EXACT state of a system in terms of its most basic KNOWN components and properties and then give its EXACT state at a later point in time? Is it theorized that no such equation exists that could produce such a result, even if it were possible to measure the actual state at a given time to such an accuracy? Is this only a quantum mechanical flaw? Are there equations that currently work with atoms as their primary abstraction that can simulate events on that scale to a degree close enough to observable reality to be useful? Are these models simply built from observations of Atoms with no underpinnings in Quantum Mechanics?

Thank you for your consideration and understanding.

P.S. Please fill in any gaps in my understanding, or perhaps explain why these problems are more superficial than they seem because there are ways of explaining observable phenomena without resorting to the exact motions of the fundamental particles which are inherently unknowable anyway, even with entanglement.

OK ONE LAST QUESTION! Does conservation of energy mean anything sensible from a quantum mechanical framework?
 
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  • #2
Please look into some basic Quantum Physics. Pretty much everything here's flawed.

My question is this: what is the meaning of all "possible" interactions. Does this mean: the uncertainty in the current known state means that there is a distribution over when and in which direction a photon will be emitted, OR does it mean: the only way to know which way a photon will be emitted in a PERFECTLY known state is to count up every way in which all known conservation laws are obeyed and that is all we can say about what will happen, OR in a PERFECTLY known state there is only ONE outcome that will obey all conservation laws, OR is it theorized that there are conservation laws that are in effect that are not presently known, so due to our lack of knowledge, we can only posit probability distributions, but even if stochastically sampled, they still obey all presently observable phenomena.

Simple. There's nothing as a perfectly known state, due to limitations of measurements. These are not a technological limit, they are a limit of the physical laws of the Universe. No matter how good our apparatus for measuring is, the laws of physics give a very well-defined limit to how good our measurements can be.

A PROBLEM: It seems as if it were so that photon emission were the only means of transferring electromagnetic force, and if position and momentum vectors were perfectly continuous, and emission was only determined by the complete state of the omitter and anything that made precise contact with it, then the odds of anything actually interacting would be infinitesimal. Is this not an issue? Are particles not points? If not what are they? Wave packets? What does one wave packet do when it fuzzes into another wave packet? Are there laws for this kind of thing?

Nothing makes direct contact with it other than bosons, by the Pauli Exclusion Principle. Stuff isn't only determined by the complete state of the emitter (which, again, doesn't exist) and anything that makes precise contact with it, we also have uncertainty due to Quantum Physics.

Do we know anything more than "Um this thing can come out of this other thing sometimes maybe I couldn't tell you when but um this gravity thing is ALWays true sometimes I think on the large scale at least something to do with probability I guess I really couldn't tell you.."

Yep. We do know "this one particle can be emitted by this other particle, maybe, I couldn't tell you, but I can give a very well-defined probability to it, and this gravity thing is pretty much always true on the large scale, and when we try to put these laws together, we get nonsense."

THE REAL QUESTION: Is there and extant theory which can take the EXACT state of a system in terms of its most basic KNOWN components and properties and then give its EXACT state at a later point in time? Is it theorized that no such equation exists that could produce such a result, even if it were possible to measure the actual state at a given time to such an accuracy? Is this only a quantum mechanical flaw? Are there equations that currently work with atoms as their primary abstraction that can simulate events on that scale to a degree close enough to observable reality to be useful? Are these models simply built from observations of Atoms with no underpinnings in Quantum Mechanics?

No. There is no such thing as an exact state.

OK ONE LAST QUESTION! Does conservation of energy mean anything sensible from a quantum mechanical framework?

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=511176
 
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  • #3
Whovian said:
There is no such thing as an exact state.

THEORETICALLY?? There is no such thing as exact state THEORETICALLY?? You are doing Baysian Inference and you don't even know what the hidden variables are?? (very stretched metaphor, I know.(I don't know, it just kind of sounded right, you ever have one of those moments, like, hey, this sounds right. I don't know if it is but it SOUNDS right. Yeah. One of those.))
 
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  • #4
Unidempicity said:
THEORETICALLY?? There is no such thing as exact state THEORETICALLY??

Correct. We can give ranges to the values.
 
  • #5
So I am to assume that the current state of theory is that particles aren't actually anywhere because hey we can't measure that. Even if it might be useful to THEORIZE that a particle ACTUALLY IS somewhere we won't do that because we will never be able to measure that and anyway we have a perfectly good theory that nothing is anywhere and we are very contented. Am I missing something?
 
  • #6
Unidempicity said:
So I am to assume that the current state of theory is that particles aren't actually anywhere because hey we can't measure that. Even if it might be useful to THEORIZE that a particle ACTUALLY IS somewhere we won't do that because we will never be able to measure that and anyway we have a perfectly good theory that nothing is anywhere and we are very contented. Am I missing something?

Nope, they're going to be "somewhere within the possible areas they can be." Not really everywhere, but in a certain range of locations. It's not useful at all to theorize a particle actually is somewhere, that would yield results in contrast with observations. Please use bold ([ B ] and [/ B ] without the spaces) instead of caps.

You finding this confusing? Welcome to Quantum Mechanics.
 
  • #7
Unidempicity said:
So I am to assume that the current state of theory is that particles aren't actually anywhere because hey we can't measure that. Even if it might be useful to THEORIZE that a particle ACTUALLY IS somewhere we won't do that because we will never be able to measure that and anyway we have a perfectly good theory that nothing is anywhere and we are very contented. Am I missing something?

I think, if I am interpreting you correctly, that you are still not getting that it is NOT a measurement problem. It is quantum weirdness. An electron, as weird as this is for classical dinosaurs such as me, does not HAVE a position. It has a probability wave.
 
  • #8
I guess my real question, then, is to do with emission, absorption, decay, and force interactions in terms of fundamental particles. In calculations to verify the assertions of the standard model, what equations are used to determine, let's say, the emission rate, energy distribution, and direction distribution of photons from a given electron, and are they derived from statistical observation, or theory that predated exact observation? Or were these rates and distributions inferred from what we already know to be true on larger scales? For a photon to be absorbed what needs to occur? Do the to particles need to occupy the same space at a point of intersection, are the particles, in the case of bosons, not actually absorbed, but reconfigured? Is there a window of proximity in which the two can 'jump' a wee bit and then become the same thing with new momentum? Also tell me what E=MC^2 means in terms of the relationship between charge mass momentum and free photons. Are other force carriers energy too? Why is energy configured the way it is and not differently? Why isn't all the energy in the universe not found in the form of neutrinos? What actually triggers an electron to emit a photon?
 
  • #9
Please, first, use slightly more specific questions, and second, I can only handle so many at a time.
 
  • #10
Whovian said:
Please, first, use slightly more specific questions, and second, I can only handle so many at a time.

OK I'm going back to The Flat Earth Society. They are much better about reasoned, critical, responses that are relevant and enlightening. I highly recommend you people join. The more the merrier!
 
  • #11
Unidempicity said:
They are much better about reasoned, critical, responses that are relevant and enlightening.

Examples?
 
  • #12
"You are welcome to include a link only after reaching 10 posts. Sorry for the inconvenience!"
 
  • #15
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What is the BIG question?

The BIG question is a philosophical or existential question that has puzzled humanity for centuries. It often relates to the purpose of life, the nature of reality, or the existence of a higher power.

How has humanity's understanding of the BIG question evolved over time?

Humanity's understanding of the BIG question has evolved significantly over time. In ancient times, many cultures believed that the answer to the BIG question lay in the hands of gods or deities. With the rise of science and rational thinking, the focus shifted to finding logical and scientific explanations for the BIG question. Today, there is a greater acceptance of multiple perspectives and a recognition that the answer to the BIG question may be different for each individual.

What role does science play in answering the BIG question?

Science plays a crucial role in understanding the BIG question. Through scientific advancements, we have gained a deeper understanding of the world around us and have been able to answer many questions about the nature of reality. However, some aspects of the BIG question still fall outside the realm of scientific inquiry, such as the purpose of life or the existence of a higher power.

How does culture and society influence our perception of the BIG question?

Culture and society have a significant influence on how we perceive and approach the BIG question. Our beliefs, values, and traditions are shaped by the cultural and societal norms we are surrounded by. Thus, our understanding of the BIG question may be influenced by the perspectives and beliefs of our culture and society.

Is there a definitive answer to the BIG question?

The answer to the BIG question is subjective and may differ from person to person. While science and philosophy can offer insights and theories, there is no one definitive answer. It ultimately depends on an individual's beliefs, values, and experiences. The journey to finding an answer to the BIG question is a personal and ongoing one.

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