Points on a Plane: Does n/2 Lines Exist?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Dragonfall
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Plane Points
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the question of whether, given n points on a plane that are not all collinear, there is always a point with at least n/2 lines incident to it, where the lines are determined by the points themselves. The conversation explores theoretical implications and conjectures related to this problem.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Historical

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that if n points are placed on a plane, not all on a line, there should be a point with at least n/2 lines incident to it.
  • Others argue that if n-1 lines are incident at each original point, the claim may not hold, especially in cases like a regular pentagon.
  • A participant mentions that if three points are collinear, they should be counted as one line, suggesting that some points may be "blocked" from seeing others.
  • One participant references a paper that appears to argue against the original statement, indicating that the claim may be false.
  • Another participant suggests that replacing n/2 with \lfloor n/2 \rfloor may still hold true.
  • A historical conjecture by G.A. Dirac is introduced, which claims that for any arrangement of n points, not all on a line, the maximum number of incident lines through a point cannot be less than n/2, with noted exceptions for certain values of n.
  • Participants acknowledge the existence of exceptions to Dirac's conjectures and note that neither conjecture has been proven.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the original claim regarding n/2 lines. While some support the idea, others provide counterexamples and reference conjectures that complicate the discussion. The conversation remains unresolved with multiple competing views.

Contextual Notes

There are noted exceptions to the conjectures discussed, particularly for specific values of n, and the lack of proof for the conjectures adds to the complexity of the discussion.

Dragonfall
Messages
1,023
Reaction score
5
If you put n points on a plane, not all on a line, is there always a point with at least n/2 lines incident? The lines in question are determined by the points themselves.
 
Mathematics news on Phys.org
Dragonfall said:
If you put n points on a plane, not all on a line, is there always a point with at least n/2 lines incident? The lines in question are determined by the points themselves.

Hi Dragonfall! :smile:

If don't get it :confused: … n-1 lines are always incident at each original point;

or if you exclude the original n points, then eg it's not even true for a regular pentagon.
 
If 3 points are on a line, then you count it as one line, not 3. If every point "sees" every other point, then yes, each point has n-1 lines incident. However it's possible that some points are "blocked" by others. Take a pencil; there is a point with n-1 lines incident, but all others have only 2.
 
If you replace it with [tex]\lfloor n/2\rfloor[/tex], it still holds.
 
ah, I understand now …

this is a 1951 conjecture of G.A.Dirac (stepson of the Dirac :wink:) "for any arrangements of n points, not all on a line, the maximum number of incident lines through a point can not be less than [n/2], and he claimed it is true for n ≤ 14."

He had a similar conjecture (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvester–Gallai_theorem#The_existence_of_many_ordinary_lines") …
for any collection of n points, not all collinear, there exist at least n⁄2 lines containing exactly two points.

The first conjecture has 4 similar exceptions for n = 11 (in Tedjn's :smile: link), and the second has a very easy exception for n = 7 (and an exception for n = 13 in the projective plane).

Neither conjecture (even with those exceptions) has been proved.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ah, this explains why I've failed to prove it. Thanks.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 25 ·
Replies
25
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K