Pope Connected to Sex Abuse Scandal

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/Criminales.pdf" [Broken]

Read the first paragraph (it is a PDF). The media has taken this paragraph, and twisted it into some sort of cover-up.
We should absolutely take the word of the Catholics with regard to an (alleged) Catholic cover-up, rather than have secular authorities investigate.

Edit: Just to clarify, this was actually in response to this:
Setting the record straight in the case of abusive Milwaukee priest Father Lawrence Murphy
By Fr. THOMAS BRUNDAGE, JCL


Read the whole thing. I am going to say that he knows a lot more about the case than we do.
I quoted the wrong post.
 
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please see:
Additionally, in the documentation in a letter from Archbishop Weakland to then-secretary of the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone on August 19, 1998, Archbishop Weakland stated that he had instructed me to abate the proceedings against Father Murphy. Father Murphy, however, died two days later and the fact is that on the day that Father Murphy died, he was still the defendant in a church criminal trial. No one seems to be aware of this. Had I been asked to abate this trial, I most certainly would have insisted that an appeal be made to the supreme court of the church, or Pope John Paul II if necessary. That process would have taken months if not longer.
 
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We should absolutely take the word of the Catholics with regard to an (alleged) Catholic cover-up, rather than have secular authorities investigate.
Because Fox News and CNN are excellent at reporting unbiased news.
 

russ_watters

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http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/Criminales.pdf" [Broken]

Read the first paragraph (it is a PDF). The media has taken this paragraph, and twisted it into some sort of cover-up.
That paragraph has nothing to do with a coverup nor what the media is saying is a coverup. That paragraph is about the crime itself: using confession as a pretext for manipulating the victims.

Did you mean to link a different document? There is a document that the media is reporting that church officials claim was intended to order a coverup.
 
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Because Fox News and CNN are excellent at reporting unbiased news.
I don't recall suggesting that Fox News or CNN should be the ones conducting the investigation.
 

russ_watters

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Because Fox News and CNN are excellent at reporting unbiased news.
Huh? Could you elaborate: you're talking about the media but what you quoted was about church officials. Are you saying church officials are being wholesale-ly misquoted?
 
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That paragraph has nothing to do with a coverup nor what the media is saying is a coverup. That paragraph is about the crime itself: using confession as a pretext for manipulating the victims.

Did you mean to link a different document? There is a document that the media is reporting that church officials claim was intended to order a coverup.
This is the one. It was on the televised news today or yesterday that this was supposed to be some sort of "what happens in the confessional, stays in the confessional" type of thing. I did not catch the whole report though, so I could be mistaken. I just got that article off of another forum which said that was the one being twisted.
 
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Huh? Could you elaborate: you're talking about the media but what you quoted was about church officials. Are you saying church officials are being wholesale-ly misquoted?
I don't recall suggesting that Fox News or CNN should be the ones conducting the investigation.

A problem on my end. Sorry about that! Didn't see the last part of your sentence.
 

russ_watters

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This is the one. It was on the televised news today or yesterday that this was supposed to be some sort of "what happens in the confessional, stays in the confessional" type of thing. I did not catch the whole report though, so I could be mistaken. I just got that article off of another forum which said that was the one being twisted.
I'm pretty sure you are mistaken/confused. That directive was written in 1962. Yes, it was part of what directed the cover-up, but it isn't discussed in the paragraph you referred us to [see below]. In addition Ratsinger wrote a similar directive in 1996. Both of these were interpreted by church officials, not by the media, to be instructions to cover these cases up.

-Page 2, boxed in blue, is where it says offenders can be transferred to other dioces rather than removed from the church.
-Page 9, boxed in blue, says if allegations "totally lacks foundation", documentation of them should be destroyed.
-Page 11, boxed in blue, talks about the secrecy of the trials.
-Page 15, boxed in blue, talks about communications secrecy and it being a serious sin to break that (as in: don't leak this to the press).
-Page 17 is a copy of the oath Priests take, which includes an oath of secrecy. It even says in clear language that secrecy trumps righteousness.

Though this is all interesting, it is a bit unnecessary. The church is arguing against a reality here: Secrecy existed. These cases were covered-up. Obviously, that's why we're hearing about them now and not 20 years ago. The only difference this makes is in whether the covering-up was an official policy or was just ordered for a few specific cases while existing mostly as a cultural component of the church. To me, that's a relatively minor difference.

The Vatican is trying to protect itself by blaming the local parishes/dioces for not dealing with the issue in order to show that the problem wasn't directed from the top down or systemic. The problem is, it existed in multiple countries. It was systemic. And the Vatican has known about it for some 50 years and is only just now starting to properly deal with it. That makes it a top-down, systemic problem.

The culture of secrecy really bothers me because it means there may be other crimes we don't know about. I'm particularly thinking about money. I consider tithing extortion anyway, but do priests ever get tempted by the money flowing through their parishes? Would we ever find out if a priest was skimming money and stashing it in a swiss bank account?
 
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...but do priests ever get tempted by the money flowing through their parishes? Would we ever find out if a priest was skimming money and stashing it in a swiss bank account?
Yeah, Russ, and some are televangelists racking in millions.
This whole darn thing is a mess. Sexual abuse, legally protected financial non-accountability/disclosure.
It's a real mess.

Perhaps the issue with the Vatican can start some type of reform on these types of abuses with respect to all legally recognized "religions"
 

russ_watters

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Perhaps the issue with the Vatican can start some type of reform on these types of abuses with respect to all legally recognized "religions"
I was thinking that more regulation/oversight based on the fact that they are businesses would solve much of the problem.
 

mheslep

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... Then again, perhaps they are relaxing their selection criteria in response to a dearth of candidates? Are you really being serious here, Ivan? You really don't expect more from a priest than you do a teacher, PE coach - even a soldier or cop? REALLY? That strains credulity.

Seriously, Ivan - that's rediculous. Being an examplary example of morality is perhaps the single most important trait of a good priest. By the very nature of the job, I - you - we - should expect priests to be vastly better than average morally.
We want, or hope, anyone in a leadership position to be better than average morally. That's obviously why news of pedophilia in the priest hood is so particularly horrific and news provoking. People being people however, I don't expect that to necessarily be the case. Also I haven't see any good comparisons of like to like in this thread showing that priests really are less so. Regarding sex crimes, comparisons to the public at large including many or most that have no access to children or authority positions does not prove much. Compare instead to the rate of those charged with overseeing children not their own and then we'd have something meaningful.

Regarding the OP point on the Pope himself, I'm inclined to consider most of the pop media stories from outlets such as CNN on this inflammatory subject as crap, absent some personal review of first-hand reports.

Bias, or sloppiness, example:
On Tuesday 3/30, http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:EraQio87H_IJ:www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36094806/ns/world_news-world_faith/+Losing+Their+Religion?+Catholicism+in+Turmoil&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us" title up on its website:
“Pope Describes Touching Boys: I Went Too Far.”
MSNBC retracted it an apologized the same day.
 
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mgb_phys

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I think
1) all people who committed crime should be treated normally
2) people who covered up the crime should be punished by law
3) church shouldn't give as much focus as it gets
4) people in funny costumes shouldn't make headlines :biggrin:
5) it should be illegal to promote abnormal practices done by many religious organizations if those seem harmful
6) church should have weaker authority in politics/media
7) providing legal statuses to the religion or alike is nonsense and should be stopped
 
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That the Catholic Church is hesitant on fully disclosing internal acts of severe moral transgression is unacceptable.
 
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That the Catholic Church is hesitant on fully disclosing internal acts of severe moral transgression is unacceptable.
They would open up as soon states/media stop giving them special status and when they would have to deal only with the legal authorities.
 

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