Proving No Set Contains All Sets Without Russell's Paradox

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the attempt to prove that no set can contain all sets without invoking Russell's paradox. Participants explore logical reasoning and mathematical formulations related to set theory, particularly focusing on the implications of a set containing itself and the consequences of such a condition.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Rich B. proposes an argument that if a set S contains itself, then it cannot contain all sets, as it leads to a contradiction when considering other elements X not equal to S.
  • Evgeny.Makarov requests clarification on whether Rich B. means "S is an element of S" or "S is a subset of S" and questions the reasoning behind the claim that S - S cannot be empty.
  • Rich B. confirms that he means "S is an element of S" and expresses uncertainty about the reasoning regarding S - S.
  • Participants provide guidance on how to properly format mathematical symbols using LaTeX in the forum.
  • A later post suggests that Cantor's Diagonal Theorem supports the conclusion that there is no greatest cardinal number and thus no set of all sets, although this point is not universally accepted in the thread.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of Rich B.'s argument and the implications of set theory principles. There is no consensus on the correctness of the reasoning presented, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the proof's validity.

Contextual Notes

Rich B.'s argument relies on specific assumptions about set membership and the nature of sets, which may not be universally accepted or clearly defined among participants. The discussion includes unresolved questions about the logical steps involved in the argument.

nikkor180
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Greetings: I am attempting to prove that no set contains all sets without Russell's paradox. What I have thus far is this:

Let S be an arbitrary set and suppose S contains S. If X is in S for some X not=S, then S - S cannot be empty. But this is a contradiction; hence if S contains S, then S contains only S. Thus S cannot contain all sets.

Is this argument valid?

Thank you.

Rich B. (note: I am not a student; this is not homework)
 
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Could you write your reasoning with formulas?

nikkor180 said:
Let S be an arbitrary set and suppose S contains S.
Do you mean $S\in S$ or $S\subseteq S$?

nikkor180 said:
If X is in S for some X not=S, then S - S cannot be empty.
Why?
 
Evgeny.Makarov: Thank you for responding to my post.

1) I mean "S is an element of S" (not subset).

Regarding "If X is in S for some X not=S, then S - S cannot be empty", I need to ponder that further. I will respond soon.

Thanks again,

Rich B.

BTW, can you tell me how to access symbols. I clicked on "element of" in the quick index but such came through in preview as \in.
 
nikkor180 said:
...
BTW, can you tell me how to access symbols. I clicked on "element of" in the quick index but such came through in preview as \in.

Hello, Rich! (Wave)

To get $\LaTeX$ symbols/commands to render as such, they need to be enclosed with tags. The simplest way to do this is to click the $$\large\Sigma$$ button on the toolbar, which will generate $$$$ tags for you, with the cursor located between the tags, ready for your input of code. :)
 
nikkor180 said:
BTW, can you tell me how to access symbols.
You should enclose formulas in dollar signs or $$...$$ tags. The tags can be inserted either manually or by clicking the $\Sigma$ button on the toolbar above the edit region. You can also click "Reply with Quote" to see how other users typed their messages. For more on formulas see http://mathhelpboards.com/latex-tips-tutorials-56/.
 
Thanks folks.
 
nikkor180 said:
Greetings: I am attempting to prove that no set contains all sets without Russell's paradox. What I have thus far is this:

Let S be an arbitrary set and suppose S contains S. If X is in S for some X not=S, then S - S cannot be empty. But this is a contradiction; hence if S contains S, then S contains only S. Thus S cannot contain all sets.

Is this argument valid?

Thank you.

Rich B. (note: I am not a student; this is not homework)

This is clearly evident from Cantor's Diagonal Theorem which leads to the conclusion that there is no greatest cardinal number ad hence no set of all sets.
For an easy routine work consider power set.
 

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