Question on ODE's with roots of multiplicity.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the general formula for solutions of nth order linear homogeneous ordinary differential equations (ODEs) with characteristic equations that have roots of multiplicity. Participants explore the existence of solutions of the form e^(mx), x*e^(mx), ..., x^(n-1)e^(mx) and the methods used to derive these solutions, particularly in the context of higher order ODEs.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how the general formula for solutions of an nth order linear homogeneous ODE with a characteristic equation factored to (x-a)^n is derived, specifically seeking proof or explanation for the existence of such solutions.
  • Another participant points out that the original ODE presented is nonhomogeneous and provides the correct homogeneous portion and its characteristic equation, suggesting numerical methods for finding roots.
  • Some participants discuss the reduction of order and variation of parameters as techniques applicable to higher order ODEs, noting that while powerful, these methods can become complex.
  • A participant presents a detailed derivation using the differential operator and properties of the characteristic polynomial to show how solutions of the form xe^(m0x) arise from repeated roots.
  • There is a query about whether similar reasoning applies to Cauchy-Euler equations, indicating a search for analogous methods for different types of ODEs.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the original ODE, with some asserting it is nonhomogeneous while others maintain the focus on the homogeneous solutions. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best methods to demonstrate the existence of the solution patterns for higher order ODEs.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the complexity of applying reduction of order and variation of parameters to higher order ODEs, suggesting that these methods may not be straightforward. Additionally, there is uncertainty regarding the extension of these methods to Cauchy-Euler equations.

Skrew
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I was wondering how the general formula for the solutions of an nth order linear homogeneous ODE that had a characteristic equation which could be factored to (x-a)^n was derived(IE a set of solutions consisting e^(mx), x*e^(mx), ...x^(n-1)e^(mx)))?

For example the ODE,

y^(3)- 3y'' + 3y' - y = 0,

with characteristic equation,

m^3 - 3m^2 + 3m - 1 = 0

can be factored to

(m-1)^3,

where m = 1

and e^(x), x*e^(x) and x^2*e^(x) are all solutions.

For a second order ODE this can be found using a reduction of order technique but for higher order ODE's it gets very difficult to do so I am wondering what proof/explanation exists to show that we know such solutions exist?

I have looked around online and all the books/articles just say that's the case but don't provide an explanation.
 
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You actually have a nonhomogeneous ODE here. The homogeneous portion is
[tex]y^{(3)} - 3 y^{''} + 3y = 0[/tex]
The characteristic equation is
[tex]m^3 - 3m^2 + 3 = 0[/tex]

This does not have repeated roots. I had to use Matlab to find them numerically.

You should be able to find the particular solution by inspection.

However, if you needed it, for third and higher order ODEs you can use reduction of order / variation of parameters just like you do for second order. It is a powerful technique, although it of course can get messy!

jason
 
jasonRF said:
You actually have a nonhomogeneous ODE here. The homogeneous portion is
[tex]y^{(3)} - 3 y^{''} + 3y = 0[/tex]
The characteristic equation is
[tex]m^3 - 3m^2 + 3 = 0[/tex]

This does not have repeated roots. I had to use Matlab to find them numerically.

You should be able to find the particular solution by inspection.

However, if you needed it, for third and higher order ODEs you can use reduction of order / variation of parameters just like you do for second order. It is a powerful technique, although it of course can get messy!

jason

Ah I see I messed up when writing the post, it was late.

I will edit it, but my question still exists.

Is reduction of order/variation of parameters the only way to show that the e^(mx), x*e^(mx),...x^(n-1)e^(mx) pattern exists?
 
Let's denote L{} as the differential operator of a constant coefficient ODE.
So the solutions satisfy:

L(y)=0

Now this operator has the property that for functions [tex]y(x)=e^{mx}[/tex] it satisfies:

[tex]L(e^{mx})=P(m)e^{mx}[/tex]

With P() being the characteristic polynomial. Now let's assume some m0 is a multiple root of P().

Let's take the latter equation and differentiate it with respect to m. Since L is an operator wrt x, it will commute with the m-differentiation so:

[tex]\frac{d}{dm}L(e^{mx})=L(\frac{d}{dm}e^{mx})=L(xe^{mx})[/tex]

On the other side:

[tex]\frac{d}{dm}(P(m)e^{mx})=P'(m)e^{mx}+xP(m)e^{mx}[/tex]

Since m0 is at least of multiplicity 2, it is also a root of the derivative of P. Therefore when we evaluate the latter at m0 we get a zero, which means:

[tex]L(xe^{m_{0}x})=P'(m_{0})e^{m_{0}x}+xP(m_{0})e^{m_{0}x}=0[/tex]

So

[tex]y(x)=xe^{m_{0}x}[/tex]

Is another solution. Repeating this (assuming m0 has bigger multiplicity) you'll get higher powers of x.
 
elibj123 said:
Let's denote L{} as the differential operator of a constant coefficient ODE.
So the solutions satisfy:

L(y)=0

Now this operator has the property that for functions [tex]y(x)=e^{mx}[/tex] it satisfies:

[tex]L(e^{mx})=P(m)e^{mx}[/tex]

With P() being the characteristic polynomial. Now let's assume some m0 is a multiple root of P().

Let's take the latter equation and differentiate it with respect to m. Since L is an operator wrt x, it will commute with the m-differentiation so:

[tex]\frac{d}{dm}L(e^{mx})=L(\frac{d}{dm}e^{mx})=L(xe^{mx})[/tex]

On the other side:

[tex]\frac{d}{dm}(P(m)e^{mx})=P'(m)e^{mx}+xP(m)e^{mx}[/tex]

Since m0 is at least of multiplicity 2, it is also a root of the derivative of P. Therefore when we evaluate the latter at m0 we get a zero, which means:

[tex]L(xe^{m_{0}x})=P'(m_{0})e^{m_{0}x}+xP(m_{0})e^{m_{0}x}=0[/tex]

So

[tex]y(x)=xe^{m_{0}x}[/tex]

Is another solution. Repeating this (assuming m0 has bigger multiplicity) you'll get higher powers of x.

Thank you, I understand it now.

Does something similar exist to describe repeated roots on CauchyEuler equations? I'm not seeing an obvious way that it extends to it.
 
Another way to approach this is to use the "reduction of order" method.

Seeing that the characteristic equation, [itex](m-1)^3= 0[/itex] has m= 1 as solution, we know that one solution to the d.e. is [itex]e^x[/itex]. Now, seek a solution of the form [itex]y(x)= u(x)e^x[/itex]. By the product rule, [itex]y'= u'e^x+ ue^x[/itex], [itex]y'= u''e^x+ 2u'e^x+ ue^x[/itex], and [itex]y'''= u'''e^x+ 3u''e^x+ 3u'e^x+ ue^x[/itex]. Putting those into the differential equation, we have [itex]u''e^x+ 3u''e^x+ 3u'e^x+ ue^x-[/itex][itex]3u''e^x- 6u'e^x- 3ue^x+ 3u'e^x+ 3ue^x- ue^x= 0[/itex] which reduces to [itex]u'''e^x= 0[/itex]. That is the same as u"'= 0 and, integrating three times, [itex]u(x)= Ax^2+ Bx+ C[/itex] which gives [itex]y(x)= Ax^2e^x+ Bxe^x+ Cx[/itex] as the general solution.

As for CauchyEuler equations, also called "equi-potential" equations since the coefficient of each derivative has x to a power equal to the order of the derivative, the change of variable, x= ln(t), changes a CauchyEuler equation, in variable t, to an equation with constant coefficients, in variable x. Multiplying by powers of x, in the constant coefficients equation, then, leads to multiplying by powers of ln(t) in the CauchEuler equation.

That is, if the characteristic equation for a CauchyEuler equation is [itex](m- a)^3[/itex], the three independent solutions to the equation are [itex]t^a[/itex], [itex]t^a ln(t)[/itex], and [itex]t^a (ln(t))^2[/itex].
 
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