Raising & Lowering Indices: Q&A on Relativity

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter GR191511
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Indices
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical treatment of Lorentz transformations in the context of special and general relativity, specifically focusing on the manipulation of indices using the Minkowski metric. Participants raise questions about the validity and implications of certain operations involving the metric and Lorentz transformation matrices.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the usage of the term ##-\eta_{44}## in the context of the equation provided and seeks clarification on its significance.
  • Another participant expresses skepticism about the operation being performed, suggesting it may be unnecessary and requests confirmation of the transcription and context.
  • There is a discussion about the conventions for notating Lorentz transformations, with some participants interpreting the indices differently and noting that the 44 component is 1.
  • Concerns are raised about the appropriateness of contracting the metric with a Lorentz transformation, with one participant cautioning that care must be taken regarding the coordinate expression of the metric used.
  • Some participants assert that the Lorentz transformation is not a tensor, which raises questions about the legitimacy of contracting it with the metric tensor.
  • Another participant counters the claim that the Lorentz transformation is not a tensor, emphasizing its role as transformation coefficients between different inertial frames.
  • A link is provided to an external resource discussing Einstein notation, which explains the significance of subscripts and superscripts in indicating covariant and contravariant components.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of contracting Lorentz transformations with the metric tensor, with some asserting it is not appropriate while others defend the operation. There is no consensus on the implications of these operations or the interpretation of the indices involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of careful handling of indices and the need for clarity regarding the conventions used in the notation of Lorentz transformations. The discussion highlights the potential for misunderstanding due to varying interpretations of mathematical expressions.

GR191511
Messages
76
Reaction score
6
TL;DR
metric tensor
I am reading《Relativity - An Introduction to Special and General Relativity》
my question:
##1=-\eta_{44}L^{n{'}}{_4}L_{n{'}}{^4}=-\eta^{n'}{^{m'}}L_{n{'}}{_4}L_{m'}{_4}##
##\eta## is Minkowski Metric,##L## is Lorentz transformation matrix...

1.Since ##-\eta_{44}##=1,what's the usage of it here?
2.Why is ##-\eta_{44}L^{n{'}}{_4}L_{n{'}}{^4}##equal to##-\eta^{n'}{^{m'}}L_{n{'}}{_4}L_{m'}{_4}##?
3.How does the ##4## of ##L_{n{'}}{^4}## get down?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
That seems a rather odd thing to be doing. Can you check that you've transcribed correctly? And is there some context to this that you can provide?

There are several conventions for notating Lorentz transforms, so check what the textbook says, but I would interpret ##L^a{}_b## and ##L_a{}^b## as forward and reverse transforms so ##L^{n'}{}_aL_{n'}{}^b=\delta^b_a## (edit: corrected index placement)and the 44 component is 1. The operation seems rather pointless, so perhaps I'm misunderstanding something.

You can lower indices on tensors by contracting with the metric and raise them by contracting with the inverse metric. I haven't seen anybody contract the metric with a Lorentz transform before, and I'm not sure it's a good idea because you need to be careful with which coordinate expression of the metric you use, but it's just a sum so it ought to be mathematically legit. And it's not a huge problem with Einstein coordinates on flat spacetime anyway because the metric doesn't change form under Lorentz transformations. So ##L_{ab}=\eta_{ac}L^c{}_b##, I would presume.
 
Last edited:
Ibix said:
That seems a rather odd thing to be doing. Can you check that you've transcribed correctly? And is there some context to this that you can provide?

There are several conventions for notating Lorentz transforms, so check what the textbook says, but I would interpret ##L^a{}_b## and ##L_a{}^b## as forward and reverse transforms so ##L^{n'}_aL^b_{n'}=\delta^b_a## and the 44 component is 1. The operation seems rather pointless, so perhaps I'm misunderstanding something.

You can lower indices on tensors by contracting with the metric and raise them by contracting with the inverse metric. I haven't seen anybody contract the metric with a Lorentz transform before, and I'm not sure it's a good idea because you need to be careful with which coordinate expression of the metric you use, but it's just a sum so it ought to be mathematically legit. And it's not a huge problem with Einstein coordinates on flat spacetime anyway because the metric doesn't change form under Lorentz transformations. So ##L_{ab}=\eta_{ac}L^c{}_b##, I would presume.
the preceding part of the text:
"Evaluating the (4,4) component of (2.5),we obtain (remember that indices are raised and lowered by means of ##\eta##)"
the so called "(2.5)"are: ##x^{n'}=L^{n'}{_a}x^a\qquad x_{m'}=L_{m'}{^b}x_b\qquad L_{m'}{^b}=\eta {_{m'}}{_{n'}}\eta{^a}{^b}L{^{n'}}{_a}##
 
Last edited:
Ibix said:
I haven't seen anybody contract the metric with a Lorentz transform before, and I'm not sure it's a good idea because you need to be careful with which coordinate expression of the metric you use.
Indeed Lorentz transformation is not a tensor, so may be is a nosense contract it with the metric tensor (or its inverse).
 
cianfa72 said:
Indeed Lorentz transformation is not a tensor, so may be is a nosense contract it with the metric tensor (or its inverse).
It most certainly is not. The Lorentz transformation coefficients are the transformation coefficients between different inertial frames.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
1K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
1K