Rape by Deception in Israel: Sabbar Kashur's Story

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An Arab man, Sabbar Kashur, was convicted in Israel of "rape by deception" after having consensual sex with a Jewish woman who later discovered he was not Jewish. The case has sparked significant debate, with many finding the verdict to be racially motivated and absurd. Critics argue that labeling the act as rape trivializes actual sexual assault and raises concerns about the implications for consensual relationships. Comparisons were drawn to similar cases in the West, where "rape by fraud" laws exist, but the consensus is that such laws should not apply to situations like Kashur's. The discussion also highlighted broader issues regarding the treatment of women in the Middle East, including honor killings and societal violence, suggesting that while the Israeli legal system may be flawed, it is still preferable to the conditions faced by women in some neighboring regions. The conversation reflects a complex interplay of cultural norms, legal definitions, and the societal implications of such verdicts, questioning the fairness and rationale behind the conviction.
  • #31
I think it they are making the argument that he wasn't Jewish, not that he is Muslim.

Here is the article at CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/07/21/israel.rape.by.deception/index.html?iref=NS1"

Apparently she had at first tried to accuse him of actual rape, but the defence was able to prove that it was indeed consentual. This rape by deception thing was the next charge brought.

If someone has sex with a mall santa, can they sue when they find out he isn't really Santa Clause?
 
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  • #32
I heard about this on the radio today too. Apparently, she met him at a gas station, talked about and admired his motor bike, then they went across the road to a building and had sex.

You would suppose there was SOME onus on the woman here. I think it's sour grapes (that he wasn't Jewish) on her part.

Look, if it had been a month long deception on his part, she might have a case - but she just met him at the gas station and agreed to bonk with him.
Sheesh !

(I should drive my bike to the gas station more often)
 
  • #33
And how can she know she would want to marry the guy after a day? He could be a big jerk for that matter, oh but wait... he's supposedly jewish and wealthy... It's ok then.
 
  • #34
I believe that we are watching the antics of two crazy people. I have decided to stop trying to apply reason to this exchange.

What probably really happened:
She made a random hook-up.
Someone found out so she screamed rape.
They pressed charges and the defence showed it was concentual.
She is facing charges for raising false allegations.
The prosecuter thought up this way to raise the charges again.
Her boyfriend/fiance/husband is going to leave her regardless.
Guy will learn not to hook up with a random girl at the gas station because that is a crazy thing to do and it will most likely end up entagling you with a crazy person. Of course, a sane person would know this so I think they are both crazy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Neither of these people are devoit followers of their repective religions so I can't honestly take there views on the religouse matter seriously.
 
  • #35
Wouldn't the burdon of proof be on the prosecution? If I wanted to prove I was Jewish I don't think I could do it. And if you wanted to prove that I wasn't, I don't think you could do it either.
 
  • #36
I agree with Evo that worse stuff than this happens in the Middle East. But at the same time, we can't simply excuse bad behavior by pointing to worse behavior. Israel is basically funded by America. Whether or not you think this is a good thing, I think this at least entitles us to some say in how they treat their people over there. This is a highly racist verdict. "Rape by deception" is not rape at all, and only minimizes real rape.

I hate to say this, but I sometimes have to look at the middle east with surprise that any place can be that backward.
 
  • #37
arunma said:
I agree with Evo that worse stuff than this happens in the Middle East. But at the same time, we can't simply excuse bad behavior by pointing to worse behavior. Israel is basically funded by America. Whether or not you think this is a good thing, I think this at least entitles us to some say in how they treat their people over there. This is a highly racist verdict. "Rape by deception" is not rape at all, and only minimizes real rape.

I hate to say this, but I sometimes have to look at the middle east with surprise that any place can be that backward.

Is this really a good example though? This easily could have happened in the United States. Instead it would be "He said he was a doctor, but it turns out he works the gas station I met him at. He tricked me!"
 
  • #38
Pattonias said:
Is this really a good example though? This easily could have happened in the United States. Instead it would be "He said he was a doctor, but it turns out he works the gas station I met him at. He tricked me!"

I don't think the man in that hypothetical scenario would have been convicted, however. This isn't about the silliness of the charge, but the silliness of the verdict.
 
  • #39
Werg22 said:
I don't think the man in that hypothetical scenario would have been convicted, however. This isn't about the silliness of the charge, but the silliness of the verdict.
Surely he can appeal? I must say that I don't agree with the verdict if the reports are accurate.
 
  • #40
In at least one article about this his lawyer said they planned on appealing
 
  • #41
That's completely irrelevant to the thread
 
  • #42
Office_Shredder said:
That's completely irrelevant to the thread

Yea! What the heck is that. I was expecting to see raping and pillaging
 
  • #43
Office_Shredder said:
That's completely irrelevant to the thread
Yes you're right (deleted), though I wish someone had said so initially in response to #11.
 
  • #44
Evo said:
Surely he can appeal?
Supposedly he's already been under house arrest for two years.
mheslep said:
Yes you're right (deleted), though I wish someone had said so initially in response to #11.
Huh?
 
  • #45
cesiumfrog said:
Supposedly he's already been under house arrest for two years.
Huh?
Just the first couple sentences, OT:
cesiumfrog said:
If you're in the US then you're pretty much responsible for the ongoing excess power of the Israeli government.[...]
 
  • #46
mheslep, that was in direct response to Evo's question of whether "we" are in a place to judge. #36 echoes the same.

I think Evo meant to question whether or not one culture can judge another (and which culture's values it should do so using). Relativism, right? But clearly there is no such problem with using one's own cultural values to judge whether you approve of the effects which are resulting from continuing active support by your own society.

The incident seems to be more abhorrent to our eyes than most Israelis'. I guess the question is whether it is representative and indicative of Israel's treatment of humans (Arabs) in their region, or whether it is representative merely of crazy outlier court verdicts worldwide (maybe it really was a rape and this was just a ploy to ensure a conviction). At any rate, if those courts were overconcerned with the appearance of justice being done despite expected bias, you wouldn't be surprised by a verdict that she also raped-by-deception him.
 
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  • #47
Pattonias said:
Is this really a good example though? This easily could have happened in the United States. Instead it would be "He said he was a doctor, but it turns out he works the gas station I met him at. He tricked me!"

I suppose that is the most direct analogy. I'm sure this happens all the time. Whatever this is, it's not criminal and it certainly isn't rape. I find it hard to believe that this sort of verdict is tolerated in a supposed bastion of civilization in the middle east.
 
  • #48
arunma said:
I suppose that is the most direct analogy. I'm sure this happens all the time. Whatever this is, it's not criminal and it certainly isn't rape. I find it hard to believe that this sort of verdict is tolerated in a supposed bastion of civilization in the middle east.
Israel is not perfect, but it is better than it's neighbors in this regard. It is a poor judge who cannot see this.
 
  • #49
Borg said:
Hypothetically speaking, can I have an ex-girlfriend thrown in jail because she told me that she was a "nice person"? :devil:
Perhaps not, but it has gotten me out from under a couple of alimony payments. :biggrin:

Truth be told, I'm having a bit of trouble keeping track of this crap.
The simple fact of the matter is that there are no such things as "human rights" aside from those imparted by a given political/social structure.

edit: I'm going to blame this on the alcohol; I began composing this as a follow-up to post #11. It took me a tad longer than I anticipated. :redface:
 
  • #50
Danger said:
Truth be told, I'm having a bit of trouble keeping track of this crap.
The simple fact of the matter is that there are no such things as "human rights" aside from those imparted by a given political/social structure.

Isn't that kind of what human rights are? If there was no political/social structure there would be no way of defining and then enforcing "human rights".
 
  • #51
Pattonias said:
Isn't that kind of what human rights are? If there was no political/social structure there would be no way of defining and then enforcing "human rights".

There are those, particularly politicians and rights activists, that would argue that "human rights" are universal.
 
  • #52
TheStatutoryApe said:
There are those, particularly politicians and rights activists, that would argue that "human rights" are universal.

Unfortunatly, those rights are only extended to those with a means of enforcing their defence.
 
  • #53
Pattonias said:
Isn't that kind of what human rights are? If there was no political/social structure there would be no way of defining and then enforcing "human rights".

My point exactly. In the absence of a sociopolitical structure which defines and enforces them, such do not exist.
Stats, you are pointing out the same thing. Those who argue that human rights are universal are members of a structure that seeks to impose their opinions. Ideally, that assertion comes from a sense of outrage that is felt when someone is abused; more typically, it arises as part of a political agenda intended to extend the power of those who are protesting the inequity.
Our ancestors didn't become the dominant species on the planet by being nice. They arose by killing anything that was perceived as either a threat or a food source. "Human rights" began as, and continue to be, a bribe by those in power. It's an extrapolation of the old feudal system. You serve me and provide me with sustenance, and I will field an army (to which you might be called to serve) in aid of your protection. Strength in numbers. The more people there are in a group, the stronger it is. Hence nations and armies. Those enforce (or try to) whatever "rights" they consider appropriate for their citizens.
"Human rights" are strictly a construct that a nation grants in return for the loyalty of its subjects.
 

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