- #36
rootX
- 479
- 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAIpRRZvnJg
I have posted this before but seems appropriate for this thread.
I have posted this before but seems appropriate for this thread.
Nonono. They should get opinions, but there's a difference between expressing their opinions, and letting kids think that their opinions are the only ones, which IS what they usually do. It's kind of more of a precaution than not letting them think for themselves.Jack21222 said:I disagree with basically everything you just said. The biggest point I disagree with, though, is that 16 year olds best learn by "shutting up and listening, and not forming an opinion of their own." That's a TERRIBLE way to learn in my opinion.
DaveC426913 said:Straw man. You shoot yourself in the foot as a debater. You want us to take you seriously, right?
Evo said:Try telling them that you understand their desire to go to church, but that you no longer believe in it and would rather not go.
Avoid discussions of who is right and who is wrong. Don't belittle their beliefs or feelings. This is about your beliefs only. Hopefully they will respect your decision.
I told my mom (a devout Catholic) that I couldn't go anymore when I was 11. She was absolutely fine.
Good luck to you.
Astronuc said:Don't tell your parents that you think their beliefs are stupid. Simply state that you would prefer not to go to church. You might consider an exception for certain holidays.
If one wants one's parents to respect one's beliefs, then reciprocate. I suspect one's parents might enjoy the community and friendships, as well as the spirituality, of the church.
At 16 I simply told my parents that I would not be attending church. Prior to that, my brother and I would go to church with my mom, grab a cup of coffee and a donut, and then walk out the door on the other side of the building, return to the car, and spend an hour listening to American Top 40 with Casey Kasem. It was pretty decent during the early 70's. Then we found a better rock station.
russ_watters said:I agree with your first piece of advice.
The OP is basically saying it is more trouble than it is worth to try to argue about it, and so already knows what to do: Suck it up and deal with it for the next year or two or 5 until you no longer live with them on a consistent basis (ie, when you go to college).
NeoDevin said:Not everyone's parents are so understanding (caution, contains some swearing)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/P8Aq00yJSxo&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/P8Aq00yJSxo&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
Jack21222 said:You seem to have a strange belief that until a person is 17 years 364 days old, they're a "child" and not entitled to form an opinion about anything, but the instant they turn 18, they magically become adults.
The age at which they are smart enough is highly variable. Some are 10, others are 25. Also it isn't a binary switch. As you start to become more mature and critically thinking you become better at forming your own worldview. If you have never had any experience of forming or arguing about opinions until you are 18, then you won't be ready to express your opinion when you are 18 because it doesn't magically develop overnight. It slowly grows and you refine it over a period of many years.By the time they turn 18, they should be smart enough to know how to express their opinion.
GreatEscapist said:Nonono. They should get opinions, but there's a difference between expressing their opinions, and letting kids think that their opinions are the only ones, which IS what they usually do. It's kind of more of a precaution than not letting them think for themselves.
rasmhop said:Children are by default agnostic.
GeorginaS said:Nah. Children by default subscribe to magical thinking.
What a strange thing to say.rootX said:You seem to be excessively biased towards parents ...
Jack21222 said:Lets look at two scenarios, and you tell me the difference between them.
Yup. Which is why virtually all societies recognize that it is the parents' job to guide their values.MotoH said:Why? 7 year olds and 17 year olds both believe they know everything they need to know.
DaveC426913 said:The only thing we do not agree on is at what age the child is mature enough to make certain decisions for himself.
DaveC426913 said:Yup. Which is why virtually all societies recognize that it is the parents' job to guide their values.
I think we all agree that parents start off making all the decisions for their children (no one here is going to argue that a 3-year-old does not know best about playing on the stove top, or poking a cat with a sharp stick).
The only thing we do not agree on is at what age the child is mature enough to make certain decisions for himself.
Is there anyone who disagrees with this?
(I'm hoping if we reach consensus on this we can re-establish a new baseline for the discussion.)
I disagree somewhat. Firstly there is no universal age where a child is mature. Age does not measure maturity even though it's often correlated. It's like asking at what color food is cooked. It really depends on the type of food. Similarly the age depends on the type of individual and the kind of upbringing he has had.DaveC426913 said:Yup. Which is why virtually all societies recognize that it is the parents' job to guide their values.
I think we all agree that parents start off making all the decisions for their children (no one here is going to argue that a 3-year-old does not know best about playing on the stove top, or poking a cat with a sharp stick).
The only thing we do not agree on is at what age the child is mature enough to make certain decisions for himself.
Is there anyone who disagrees with this?
(I'm hoping if we reach consensus on this we can re-establish a new baseline for the discussion.)
I believe "certain" is an important element in Dave's claim. He did not suggest all decisions made by an individual are wise.waht said:Are 22 year old suicide bombers considered mature and able to make their own decisions?DaveC426913 said:The only thing we do not agree on is at what age the child is mature enough to make certain decisions for himself.
rootX said:Would a +30 years old always make wiser/more mature decisions than a 3 years old?
rasmhop said:I disagree somewhat. Firstly there is no universal age where a child is mature. Age does not measure maturity
Maybe I misunderstood you, but you wrote:DaveC426913 said:Woah, woah woah. I never said anything about any unilateral age. That will of course, be the next thing under discussion.
Of course at some age parents make all decisions about beliefs. For instance a 3 minute old baby will not decide a whole lot by itself.I am simply trying to establish that we all concede that, at some point in a child's life, its parents make all its decisions for it, and that these decisions are downloaded* one-by-one to the child at some appropriate time.
Well yes, but honestly I don't see the relevance of this. Especially since it would be a case-by-case decision. Remember we're talking about a 16-year old person having opinions and beliefs, not a 3-year old being taught about stoves. In my opinion as soon as you're able to form your own opinions you're mature enough to have your own opinions. Your parents may comment on your opinions and try to provide the perspective that you may lack, but they should never force opinions on you.The only issue in contention here then, is at what point any given decision is handed to the child.
union68 said:I can only speak from personal experience, but I think the reason some religious parents will "force" their views onto their children is because they're genuinely afraid that their children will not be "saved," "go to hell," etc.
Not forcing opinions on you, but keeping you learning until your opinions are informed.rasmhop said:In my opinion as soon as you're able to form your own opinions you're mature enough to have your own opinions. Your parents may comment on your opinions and try to provide the perspective that you may lack, but they should never force opinions on you.
DaveC426913 said:Not forcing opinions on you, but keeping you learning until your opinions are informed.
My boy decided he hated math in Grade 4. Should he have had the right to decide to stop learning math?
DaveC426913 said:Not forcing opinions on you, but keeping you learning until your opinions are informed.
My boy decided he hated math in Grade 4. Should he have had the right to decide to stop learning math?
Tell that to a child.zomgwtf said:You don't believe in math, you utilize it and it's a very usefull tool.
Sorry, how do you get that from what I said?MotoH said:Oh, well he is old enough to make a decision on whether he doesn't like religion or not, so he must be old enough to not take any more math classes! It makes all the sense in the world. /sarcasm
DaveC426913 said:Sorry, how do you get that from what I said?
Did you not get the point that we don't allow children to just willy nilly decide what they should learn?
zomgwtf said:This is true but it must also be understood by your parents that this is only a belief, and it's not some phenomena on Earth which has direct implications.
DaveC426913 said:Tell that to a child.
This is precisely the issue we are talking about: I don't see the point in this therefore I will stop learning it. And that's that.
Unless the child has wise, firm and patient parents.
union68 said:But, they do believe that. That's my whole point. What I do in this life does have a direct affect on my "afterlife." From this comes the fear mentioned in my first post.
Why do you think it's not the same? A minor cannot make an informed decision until he's learned enough to do so. The parents are the only oens (not to mention the designated ones) to decide how much.zomgwtf said:Yes, I understand your point. My point is that this is NOT comparable to religion and neither is MotoH's point about wearing shorts in winter.
Sure it does. Don't see how it's not directly related.zomgwtf said:None of this relates to the OP however sooo maybe time for a new thread huh?
It's not about belief; it's about education.zomgwtf said:Your PARENTS take it to be true and they should respect the choice of their child to NOT believe as well... or believe in something else for that matter.
Parenting has no place in enforcing BELIEFS in children.
DaveC426913 said:It's not about belief; it's about education.
It is the parents' job to educate until the children are informed enough.
DaveC426913 said:Sure it does. Don't see how it's not directly related.