Result regarding signs and a limit

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Mr Davis 97
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Limit
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of a limit involving a differentiable function and whether a positive limit guarantees that the function value at a point greater than a specified point is also greater than the function value at that point. The scope includes theoretical reasoning and potential counterexamples.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the implication that if ##\lim_{x\to a}\frac{f(x)-f(a)}{x-a}>0## and ##x>a## then ##f(x)>f(a)## is valid, suggesting the need for a counterexample.
  • One participant proposes that for values of ##x## sufficiently close to ##a##, the limit condition leads to a bounded inequality that could support the claim.
  • Another participant reflects on whether the result is sufficiently obvious to assert without further justification, considering if it requires a formal proof or lemma.
  • One participant finds the result obvious, reasoning that for the quotient to be negative, the numerator must also be negative, which contradicts the approach to a positive limit for a continuous function.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the implication and whether it requires further justification or proof. There is no consensus on the necessity of a counterexample or the obviousness of the result.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss the implications of differentiability and continuity in relation to limits, but there are unresolved assumptions regarding the behavior of functions near the point of interest.

Mr Davis 97
Messages
1,461
Reaction score
44
Suppose that ##f : \mathbb{R} \to \mathbb{R}## is differentiable at ##a\in\mathbb{R}##. Is it true that if ##\lim_{x\to a}\frac{f(x)-f(a)}{x-a}>0## and ##x>a## then ##f(x)>f(a)##? I'm trying to find a counterexample to show that its false because I think it is, but I'm having a hard tome doing that for some reason. The reason I am asking is because it was used in someone's proof with no justification, but I think it's wrong.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Mr Davis 97 said:
Suppose that ##f : \mathbb{R} \to \mathbb{R}## is differentiable at ##a\in\mathbb{R}##. Is it true that if ##\lim_{x\to a}\frac{f(x)-f(a)}{x-a}>0## and ##x>a## then ##f(x)>f(a)##? I'm trying to find a counterexample to show that its false because I think it is, but I'm having a hard tome doing that for some reason. The reason I am asking is because it was used in someone's proof with no justification, but I think it's wrong.
Why do you think it's wrong? Say we have ##L := \lim_{x\to a}\frac{f(x)-f(a)}{x-a}>0\,.## Then for sufficiently close values ##x## to ##a##, we have ##0 < L - \frac{L}{3} < \frac{f(x)-f(a)}{x-a} < L + \frac{L}{3}##.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Mr Davis 97
fresh_42 said:
Why do you think it's wrong? Say we have ##L := \lim_{x\to a}\frac{f(x)-f(a)}{x-a}>0\,.## Then for sufficiently close values ##x## to ##a##, we have ##0 < L - \frac{L}{3} < \frac{f(x)-f(a)}{x-a} < L + \frac{L}{3}##.
Okay, I think I see. But is this result obvious enough just to claim that since ##\lim_{x\to a}\frac{f(x)-f(a)}{x-a}>0## and ##x>a## implies ##f(x)>f(a)## without further comment on why exactly this implication is true? Is it something that should be proved in a lemma or is it just an obvious result?
 
Mr Davis 97 said:
Okay, I think I see. But is this result obvious enough just to claim that since ##\lim_{x\to a}\frac{f(x)-f(a)}{x-a}>0## and ##x>a## implies ##f(x)>f(a)## without further comment on why exactly this implication is true? Is it something that should be proved in a lemma or is it just an obvious result?
I found it obvious as I thought about it this way: In order for the nominator to be negative, the entire quotient would have to be negative. But as we approach a strictly positive number, we will sooner or later have to leave the range of negativity: we cannot wait until the very last moment and all of a sudden jump onto a positive limit - at least not with a continuous function, which it is, as it's differentiable there.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Mr Davis 97

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K