News Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D/NY) To Introduce Extended Magazine Ban.

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The discussion centers on the necessity and implications of high-capacity magazines for firearms. Participants express skepticism about the need for magazines that hold over 30 rounds, questioning why civilians would require such capacity beyond military or law enforcement use. The conversation highlights the argument that extended magazines may not significantly increase danger compared to multiple smaller magazines, as a skilled shooter can manage reloading effectively. Some argue that banning high-capacity magazines is more about political posturing than genuine safety concerns, suggesting that such laws may not effectively reduce gun violence. The debate also touches on the challenges of defining "need" in the context of gun ownership and the potential ineffectiveness of laws that do not address the root causes of gun violence, such as mental health issues. Ultimately, participants call for a more evidence-based approach to legislation, emphasizing the importance of studying the actual impact of magazine capacity on crime rates before implementing new laws.
  • #121
Mech_Engineer said:
You basically think that since (in your opinion) magazines over a certain capacity have little usefulness in a self-defence situation they can be banned with no negative repercussions, but many in this therad (including myself) are saying that in order to ban them you need to PROVE that:
  1. Extended capacity magazines are used in many killings every year.
  2. Reducing the legal maximum magazine capacity reduces the number of killings every year.
Just as you said in the start of the thread, we should look at the statistics and make a rational risk management decision. Problem is, such a decision can only be made if and when the statistics exist. We can't assume the findings of such a study before it exists and pass a law based on those assumptions.

You and others can say anything you want... this isn't a burden of proof issue, this is a debate. There is existing jurisprudence and even law that could be re-instated, AND has already faced constitutional challenge.

The burden of proof is on anyone who need 33 rounds in one clip for any legal or sane purpose. CAN you think of a single goddamned reason?

edit: At this point we're literally going over the same points ad nauseum... none of us seem to agree with the law as drafted or its motives, and opinion is divided on the rest.
 
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  • #122
nismaratwork said:
You and others can say anything you want... this isn't a burden of proof issue, this is a debate.

It is absolutely a burden of proof problem. If there is no proof that reducing magazine capacity saves lives, what's the point?! Where are the statistics enabling a logical and rational decision that you insisted I make?

nismaratwork said:
The burden of proof is on anyone who need 33 rounds in one clip for any legal or sane purpose. CAN you think of a single goddamned reason?

Target practice is a perfectly good reason. Additionally, some people may feel more comfortable carrying one 30-round magazine than 2 15 round mags. You said yourself that reloading can be a problem, why not skip it altogether? Yes it might make the gun more difficult to conceal, but not impossible.
 
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  • #123
Mech_Engineer said:
It is absolutely a burden of proof problem. If there is no proof that reducing magazine capacity saves lives, what's the point?! Where are the staistics enabling a logical and rational decision that you insisted I make?



Target practice is a perfectly good reason. Additionally, some people may feel more comfortable carrying one 30-round magazine than 2 15 round mags. You said yourself that reloading can be a problem, why not skip it altogether? Yes it might make the gun more difficult to conceal, but not impossible.

You keep asking for statistics I never claimed to have. You claim that somehow this would be good for target practice... I can't take you seriously.
 
  • #124
nismaratwork said:
You keep asking for statistics I never claimed to have.

...but you claimed that they should be used for rational risk-mitigation measures. So if the statistics don't exist, how are we to make a decision that isn't a knee-jerk reaction?

nismaratwork said:
You claim that somehow this would be good for target practice... I can't take you seriously.

Why not? When shooting at targets, if you're for example practicing trigger pulls or tracking methods, more time can be spent on-target if you have more rounds in the gun. Additionally, it's more FUN (which you found to be a valid concern as well).
 
  • #125
Mech_Engineer said:
...but you claimed that they should be used for rational risk-mitigation measures. So if the statistics don't exist, how are we to make a decision that isn't a knee-jerk reaction?

I claim that they should be... wait... I just answered this a few posts ago.
nimsaratwork said:
*sigh* No... mine was a call to compile and scientifically compare those statistics instead of either:..

Unless you can do that faster than anyone ever has, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing... I presume because of the whale thread, or for reasons I won't speculate about in anything but a friendly little PM, if you like.

Mech_Engineer said:
Why not? When shooting at targets, if you're for example practicing trigger pulls or tracking methods, more time can be spent on-target if you have more rounds in the gun. Additionally, it's more FUN (which you found to be a valid concern as well).

Personally enjoy field-stripping, cleaning, and swapping magazines. I like to practice the way I shoot, and that includes multiple magazines. You seem to have only a very basic grasp of target shooting in my opinion, and again, in the larger debate, none of this helps me take you seriously.
 
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  • #126
nismaratwork said:
I claim that they should be... wait... I just answered this a few posts ago.

Unless you can do that faster than anyone ever has, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing... I presume because of the whale thread, or for reasons I won't speculate about in anything but a friendly little PM, if you like.

You're calling for the compilation of statistics, but you still feel 17+ round magazines should be banned despite the lack of proof that it will help anything.

nismaratwork said:
Personally enjoy field-stripping, cleaning, and swapping magazines. I like to practice the way I shoot, and that includes multiple magazines.

YOU enjoy that, does that mean everyone feels exactly like you?

nismaratwork said:
You seem to have only a very basic grasp of target shooting in my opinion, and again, in the larger debate, none of this helps me take you seriously.

Maybe branching out from mechanical engineering to firearms and social issues was a bit of a leap?

Please refer to the https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=113181" of this forum, specifically these rules:


PhysicsForums said:
In addition to content already prohibited by our global forum guidelines, the following are specifically NOT permitted in Politics & World Affairs:
...
2) Statements of a purely inflammatory nature, regardless of whether it is a personal insult or not.
3) Assigning truth values to opinions.
...
Consistent with our general forum guidelines, if you disagree with what someone is saying, feel free dismantle their arguments, but do not resort to ad hominem or personal attacks.
 
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  • #127
nismaratwork said:
The burden of proof is on anyone who need 33 rounds in one clip for any legal or sane purpose.
How crazy (authoritarian) is that? The burden of proof is on those who advocate the use of force against another citizen, not the citizen the force is used against.

Owning a 33 rd mag isn't a use of force. A government prohibition is. Very simple logic.
 
  • #128
nismaratwork said:
The burden of proof is on anyone who need 33 rounds in one clip for any legal or sane purpose.
I can't prove that I need all of the rights that I have. The burdon of proof should be on the one that wants to take those rights away.

Edit: Looks like Al68 beat me to this thought.
 
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  • #129
nismaratwork said:
As it happens I wasn't trying to be muddle your post; the former portion does nothing to clarify the latter.
Baloney. The former did clarify the latter, and obviously so. It's against forum rules to edit a member's quote that way.
 
  • #130
Al68 said:
Baloney. The former did clarify the latter, and obviously so. It's against forum rules to edit a member's quote that way.

I disagree with that, and you're still claiming that I broke a rule when I showed were I cut, and provided a link to your entire post IN CONTEXT if people so chose. If you really are convinced that I was tricking you, report me. It wasn't my intent, but as always the mentors judge this; I'm not going to continue this endless detour.
 
  • #131
Mech_Engineer said:
You're calling for the compilation of statistics, but you still feel 17+ round magazines should be banned despite the lack of proof that it will help anything.



YOU enjoy that, does that mean everyone feels exactly like you?



Please refer to the https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=113181" of this forum, specifically these rules:

So, full, of, pasta...

Al68/Jimmy SNyder: You have the right to bear arms, The SCOTUS already decided you don't have the right to bear them all.
 
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  • #132
nismaratwork said:
Al68/Jimmy SNyder: You have the right to bear arms, The SCOTUS already decided you don't have the right to bear them all.
But I do have the right to extended clips. I can't prove that I need all of the rights that I have. The burdon of proof should be on the one that wants to take those rights away.
 
  • #133
Jimmy Snyder said:
But I do have the right to extended clips. I can't prove that I need all of the rights that I have. The burdon of proof should be on the one that wants to take those rights away.

Really? Where's your "right to extended clips"?
 
  • #134
nismaratwork said:
Really? Where's your "right to extended clips"?
I have the right to do anything legal. I can't prove that I need all of the rights that I have. The burdon of proof should be on the one that wants to take those rights away.
 
  • #135
Jimmy Snyder said:
I have the right to anything legal. I can't prove that I need all of the rights that I have. The burdon of proof should be on the one that wants to take those rights away.

So once something made legal, it can never be made illegal by that logic.
 
  • #136
nismaratwork said:
So once something made legal, it can never be made illegal by that logic.
No, it only assigns who has the burdon of proof. I can't prove that I need all of the rights that I have. The burdon of proof should be on the one that wants to take those rights away.
 
  • #137
Jimmy Snyder said:
No, it only assigns who has the burdon of proof. I can't prove that I need all of the rights that I have. The burdon of proof should be on the one that wants to take those rights away.

So, it was legal, then illegal, now legal AND a right. This is about legal privileges beyond the simple right to bear arms, and that's not my opinion, that's the onion of The SCOTUS. In theory you could be right if this very issue hadn't already been settled law.
 
  • #138
nismaratwork said:
So, it was legal, then illegal, now legal AND a right. This is about legal privileges beyond the simple right to bear arms, and that's not my opinion, that's the onion of The SCOTUS. In theory you could be right if this very issue hadn't already been settled law.
It is currently legal and therefore currently a right. The constitution prohibits ex post facto. I can't prove that I need all of the rights that I have. The burdon of proof should be on the one that wants to take those rights away.
 
  • #139
Jimmy Snyder said:
It is currently legal and therefore currently a right. The constitution prohibits ex post facto. I can't prove that I need all of the rights that I have. The burdon of proof should be on the one that wants to take those rights away.

I don't believe you understand the rule of settled law the SCOTUS level; if this law is reinstated, any challenge would be unlikely to be heard by the court, and challenges might not reach that level at all.

This isn't about setting some kind of playing field for debate, and once again, your logic is begging the question. If every time something becomes legal, it becomes this mythical RIGHT, then you can only move a society towards more and more lax controls. That's patently absurd on its face, which you'd expect, given its fallacious premise.
 
  • #140
nismaratwork said:
I don't believe you understand the rule of settled law the SCOTUS level; if this law is reinstated, any challenge would be unlikely to be heard by the court, and challenges might not reach that level at all.

This isn't about setting some kind of playing field for debate, and once again, your logic is begging the question. If every time something becomes legal, it becomes this mythical RIGHT, then you can only move a society towards more and more lax controls. That's patently absurd on its face, which you'd expect, given its fallacious premise.
The only laws that count are current ones. Currently extended clips are legal. Everything that is legal, is a real right, not a mythical one. You can move towards stiffer controls, but the burdon of proof should be on the one who wants to make them stiffer. I can't prove that I need all of the rights that I have. The burdon of proof should be on the one that wants to take those rights away.
 
  • #141
Jimmy Snyder said:
The only laws that count are current ones. Currently extended clips are legal. Everything that is legal, is a real right, not a mythical one. You can move towards stiffer controls, but the burdon of proof should be on the one who wants to make them stiffer. I can't prove that I need all of the rights that I have. The burdon of proof should be on the one that wants to take those rights away.

Laws and regulations, and principles of fundamental rights are different. The right to bear arms, and to defense, I don't dispute for a second. There have been many different ways the law has allowed for this right in the past, but beyond that fundamental right, everything is just case-law... not legal-rights.

I do understand your point, but in essence your arguments have already been made, and dealt with by the highest legal authority in the country. What are we to gain from further debate like this? I think that there needs to be a justification for ALL things related to all firearms, otherwise we just re-hash the "why can't I carry a bazooka" debate ad infinitum.
 
  • #142
nismaratwork said:
Al68/Jimmy SNyder: You have the right to bear arms, The SCOTUS already decided you don't have the right to bear them all.
SCOTUS has also made a general determination of what type of arms are protected, in U.S. v Miller, 1939. Basically, the types of individually controlled weapons useful for battle are the types protected by the 2nd amendment. Which makes obvious sense. And which obviously includes high capacity mags.

But that doesn't shift the burden of justification for other types, it still logically rests with those advocating prohibition.

PS, if you want to research U.S. v Miller, I would suggest actually reading the http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=307&page=174". Many popular descriptions of it are fraudulent.
 
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  • #143
nismaratwork said:
Laws and regulations, and principles of fundamental rights are different. The right to bear arms, and to defense, I don't dispute for a second. There have been many different ways the law has allowed for this right in the past, but beyond that fundamental right, everything is just case-law... not legal-rights.

I do understand your point, but in essence your arguments have already been made, and dealt with by the highest legal authority in the country. What are we to gain from further debate like this? I think that there needs to be a justification for ALL things related to all firearms, otherwise we just re-hash the "why can't I carry a bazooka" debate ad infinitum.
You have the right to do anything legal. I can't prove that I need all of the rights that I have. The burdon of proof should be on the one that wants to take those rights away.
 
  • #144
Al68 said:
SCOTUS has also made a general determination of what type of arms are protected, in U.S. v Miller, 1939. Basically, the types of individually controlled weapons useful for battle are the types protected by the 2nd amendment. Which makes obvious sense. And which obviously includes high capacity mags.

But that doesn't shift the burden of justification for other types, it still logically rests with those advocating prohibition.

PS, if you want to research U.S. v Miller, I would suggest actually reading the http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=307&page=174". Many popular descriptions of it are fraudulent.

I agree that is exactly the purpose of the 2nd amendment; to defend self, hearth, home, and country. I don't believe for a second however, that in this day and age an extended-clip Glock is useful for battle. A side-arm is a useful weapon of near-last resort in battle, unless you're a Navy Seal or something equally exotic... and they prefer C4.

An extended magazine Glock isn't anything like what any military I know of has adopted as its side-arm, and it's no sub-machine gun. This is a weapon for civilian self-defense and, without the extended clip, for law enforcement, and for target shooting. Debating it as though it's somehow part of arming a militia on the home front, or even AGAINST the home front, is laughable.
 
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  • #145
Jimmy Snyder said:
You have the right to do anything legal. I can't prove that I need all of the rights that I have. The burdon of proof should be on the one that wants to take those rights away.

OK... you can keep saying that like a mantra, but you're no longer really engaging in discussion, you're just using your personal beliefs as a bludgeon, without support. I'm not going to keep feeding that.
 
  • #146
nismaratwork said:
OK... you can keep saying that like a mantra, but you're no longer really engaging in discussion, you're just using your personal beliefs as a bludgeon, without support. I'm not going to keep feeding that.
It was you that brought up the issue of burdon of proof and I feel that I have tried to engage you in a discussion of it. However, you have evaded the issue with each and every single one of your posts. I can't prove that I need all of the rights that I have. The burdon of proof should be on the one that wants to take those rights away. Can you defend the opposite view?
 
  • #147
nismaratwork said:
I agree that is exactly the purpose of the 2nd amendment; to defend self, hearth, home, and country. I don't believe for a second however, that in this day and age an extended-clip Glock is useful for battle.
Having high capacity spare clips would obviously be useful if they were reliable.

And you're right, Glocks are not typically carried by soldiers, but as far as I know, there is no bill being pushed that bans 30 rd Glock mags, but not other 30 rd mags.
 
  • #148
nismaratwork said:
OK... you can keep saying that like a mantra, but you're no longer really engaging in discussion, you're just using your personal beliefs as a bludgeon, without support. I'm not going to keep feeding that.
What we should stop feeding is your repeated mantra (personal belief) that peaceful citizens have a burden to justify simply being left alone.
 
  • #149
Jimmy Snyder said:
It was you that brought up the issue of burdon of proof and I feel that I have tried to engage you in a discussion of it. However, you have evaded the issue with each and every single one of your posts. I can't prove that I need all of the rights that I have. The burdon of proof should be on the one that wants to take those rights away. Can you defend the opposite view?

Sure; A weapon is a tool that should be used in times of need; that's part of what any gun owner knows. Maybe the law should be modified for target practice exemptions, but I think that would needlessly raise the cost of administrating the law. In the past this "right", as you call it, has been absent and people lived happy and productive lives with guns. Any responsible gun owner using their firearm in its primary contexts: SD/HD/TP gains no advantage by being able to fire 33 rounds of ammunition without so much as reloading. In fact, doing that in any SD/HD scenario is practically begging for tragedy...


Of the actual defense or not... what I find amusing is that I usually have this debate, not in a "gun rights" context when I'm offline, but in the context of, "what do you carry/own?" It always comes down to advantages and disadvantages... I'm yet to hear someone offline opine that they needed bigger extended magazines.
 
  • #150
Al68 said:
What we should stop feeding is your repeated mantra (personal belief) that peaceful citizens have a burden to justify simply being left alone.

You have no right to be left alone.
edit: Nor do you have the ability; by even your standard, that's a fiction.
 

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