Series of Systems/Heat/Work Questions

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a series of thermodynamics questions related to a hypothetical scenario involving baking a shepherd's pie. Participants explore concepts such as system vs. surroundings, exothermic and endothermic processes, work done by gas expansion, and enthalpy changes. The scope includes theoretical understanding and mathematical reasoning related to heat and work in thermodynamic processes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant identifies the oven as part of the surroundings, arguing it is not part of the molecular environment.
  • Another participant suggests that the ashing of the pie is an endothermic process, as heat is absorbed from the oven.
  • Participants discuss the calculation of work done during gas expansion, with one proposing the equation W=PΔV and questioning how to handle the volume change.
  • There is confusion about whether to add or subtract the initial and final volumes when calculating work, with some participants suggesting subtraction.
  • One participant confirms the calculation of work in L*atm and its conversion to Joules, leading to a final answer of 62800J.
  • Participants explore the relationship between total energy change, heat, and work, using the equation Change in Energy = q + w.
  • There is a discussion about the sign convention for enthalpy change, with one participant unsure whether to include a negative sign based on heat absorption or release.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and confidence regarding the calculations and concepts. There is no consensus on the correct interpretation of the sign conventions for enthalpy change, and some participants are still grappling with the mathematical relationships involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention the need for clarity on units and significant figures, indicating potential limitations in their understanding of the mathematical steps involved in the calculations.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students studying thermodynamics, particularly those seeking to understand the relationship between heat, work, and energy changes in chemical processes.

RJLiberator
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I am trying to fully grasp the concepts behind the series of questions here.

"You're baking a batch of shepard's pie in your oven and fall asleep while it's baking. When you are awakened by the fire alarm, you quickly clear out the smoke and open the oven. Your shepard's pie is reduced to ash. Within the tragic scenario of destroying your pie, would the oven be considered part of the system or is it the surroundings? (Write system or surroundings)"

My Answer: Surroundings.
Why? Because the oven is not part of the molecular environment.

"Based upon your answer in question 28, is the ashing of the pie an exothermic or endothermic process?"
My answer: Endothermic
Why? Endothermic means that heat is being absorbed here. The outside surrounding (oven) with its heat is adding to the molecular "pie."

"Your kitchen is an anomaly in that it always maintains atmospheric pressure. If your raw shepard's pie occupied 2.55L of space and released 622L of gas as it burned, what amount of work was done under these conditions? (1 L*atm = 101.325J)."
This is where I am struggling big time. There seems to be many different equations here and I am not sure what equation to begin with. I see I need to find work done, but I don't understand how this translates to gas and the numbers given. Any guidance on where to begin? (equation, link, anything)

"If there was a total energy change of 3.32x10^5J during the burning of your pie, what amount of heat was released?

I think I will be able to answer this one after I get help with the previous question.

What was the enthalpy change in the reaction given your results? (remember the sign conventions when determining your answer)

With this one, I assume I need to find the balanced equation first, correct?
 
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RJLiberator said:
This is where I am struggling big time. There seems to be many different equations here and I am not sure what equation to begin with. I see I need to find work done, but I don't understand how this translates to gas and the numbers given. Any guidance on where to begin? (equation, link, anything)

W=PΔV

(easy to derive if you remember W=force × displacement and pressure definition)

With this one, I assume I need to find the balanced equation first, correct?

No, you are not asked about molar change, but about overall change.
 
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Thanks for replying, Borek. You seem to help out a lot here. It is appreciated. I hope to help out here someday as I get further advanced.

W=PChange in Volume

Okay. Well, we know that pressure is atmospheric pressure at 1atm
We know we need to find work.

The change in volume, hm. I wonder if I add or subtract the two numbers. Since the pie occupies initially 2.55L of space and RELEASED 655L of energy, I would imagine I subtract. So 655L-2.55L and then multiply by 101.325 to get the answer.

Is my reasoning correct?
 
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Okay, Update:

So with the atmospheric pressure being equal to 1atm we can negate that from the equation essentially (taking in account for units.)

W = 1atm*(622L-2.55L)
We then multiple the answer by 101.325 to get the answer in Joules.

:D?
 
Don't guess, check the units.

Yes, 622L-2.55L is the ΔV.
 
Thank YOU. That part of the equation has been bugging me all morning.

622-2.55 is correct volume change. So this means that we have

W = 1atm(622L-2.55L)
This would equal a number in L*atm Which we can convert to joules per the problems request by multiplying by 101.325.

Okay, most importantly, I can see how the wording of the equation translates into the equation. So it is not cumulative and needs to be subtracted.

Thank you.

My final answer was calculated to be 62765. With significant figures this comes out to be 62800J.
 
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For the next problem:
"If there was a total energy change of 3.32x10^5J during the burning of your pie, what amount of heat was released?

Changei n Energy = q+w where q is heat and w is work
(3.32*10^5) = (622-2.55)(101.325)+q
= 269,200J

Sig figs = 2.69*10^5J
 
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For the question:
What was the enthalpy change in the reaction given your results? (remember the sign conventions when determining your answer)

"Also at constant pressure the heat flow (q) for the process is equal to the change in enthalpy defined by the equation:

ΔH=q"

So with this equation, my answer in question 4 (269000J) is ALSO the answer for #5. For some reason, I think I need to put a negative in front of it and it has to do with the heat being absorbed or released. I just can't wrap my mind around what's happening here.
 
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