Similar to an eigenvalue problem.help

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a linear homogeneous ordinary differential equation system that models the natural response of a two-degree-of-freedom structural system. Participants explore the implications of the system's matrices, particularly focusing on the eigenvalue-like behavior of certain derived quantities and the conditions under which they can be considered real and positive.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Post 1 introduces a system of equations and poses a question regarding the deduction that the values of \(\omega_n^2\) are real and positive.
  • Post 2 suggests that \(\omega_n^2\) can be viewed as eigenvalues of the matrix \([m]^{-1}[k]\), which is derived from manipulating the original equation.
  • Post 3 acknowledges the relationship between positive definiteness and invertibility, questioning whether the product \([m]^{-1}[k]\) is positive definite given that \([m]^{-1}\) and \([k]\) are both positive definite.
  • Post 4 raises concerns about the symmetry of \([m]^{-1}[k]\], noting that it is not symmetric and questioning how this affects the reality and positivity of its eigenvalues.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the conditions under which \([m]^{-1}[k]\) can be considered positive definite and whether its eigenvalues can be guaranteed to be real and positive. There is no consensus on these points, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in their understanding of matrix properties, particularly regarding the implications of positive definiteness and the behavior of products of non-commuting matrices. The discussion also reflects on the need for further clarification on the eigenvalue properties of non-symmetric matrices.

BobbyBear
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Consider the following linear homogeneous ordinary differential equation system:
(NB this system describes the movement of the natural response of a two degree of freedom structural system made up of two lumped masses connected by elastic rigidities) :

<br /> \left( \begin{array}{cc}<br /> m_1 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; m_2 \\<br /> \end{array} \right) <br /> <br /> \left( \begin{array}{cc}<br /> \ddot{u}_1 \\<br /> \ddot{u}_2 \\<br /> \end{array} \right) <br /> +<br /> \left( \begin{array}{cc}<br /> (k_1 + k_2) &amp; -k_2 \\<br /> -k_2 &amp; k_2 \\<br /> \end{array} \right) <br /> <br /> \left( \begin{array}{cc}<br /> u_1 \\<br /> u_2 \\<br /> \end{array} \right) <br /> <br /> =<br /> \left( \begin{array}{cc}<br /> 0 \\<br /> 0 \\<br /> \end{array} \right) <br /> <br /> <br />

which I shall compactly write as:

<br /> [m] \vec{\ddot{u}} + [k] \vec{u}} = \vec{0}<br />

Now, to solve, we assume a solution of the form:

<br /> \vec{u}(t)=q_n(t) \vec{\phi _n} <br />

where

<br /> q_n(t) = A_n cos (\omega _n t) + B_n sin (\omega _n t)<br />

and

<br /> \vec{\phi _n} <br />

is a constant vector.

Then
<br /> \vec{\ddot{u}}(t)=-\omega _n^2 q_n(t) \vec{\phi _n}<br />

Substituting into the differential system,

<br /> \left[-\omega _n^2 [m] \vec{\phi _n} + [k] \vec{\phi _n} \right] q_n(t) = \vec{0}<br />

from which

<br /> -\omega _n^2 [m] \vec{\phi _n} + [k] \vec{\phi _n} = \vec{0}<br />

<br /> (-\omega _n^2 [m] + [k]) \vec{\phi _n} = \vec{0}<br />

and for there to be a non trivial solution, we need:

<br /> det(-\omega _n^2 [m] + [k]) = 0<br />

from which we get two values of

<br /> \omega _n^2<br />

Now, my book (Dynamics of Structures by Chopra) says that the \omega _n^2 are real and positive because [k] and [m] are real symmetric and positive definite.
I don't see how this deduction is made! I mean, I know that if a matrix [A] is a real symmetric matrix that is positive definite, then all its eigenvalues are real and positive (the proof is available in any standard text of linear algebra).
But I just don't see how to prove the other statement! the \omega _n^2 are not the eigenvalues of any matrix, are they? (even though it's a similar problem to an eigenvalue problem). Can someone help me see how that deduction is made?
 
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The matrix [m] is invertible. Factor it out of

-\omega _n^2 [m] \vec{\phi _n} + [k] \vec{\phi _n} = \vec{0}

to get

-\omega _n^2 \vec{\phi _n} + [m]^{-1}[k] \vec{\phi _n} = \vec{0}

or

[m]^{-1}[k] \vec{\phi _n} = \omega _n^2 \vec{\phi _n},

which means the \omega_n^2 are eigenvalues of the matrix [m]^{-1}[k].
 
Thank you Mute, I never thought of doing that!

But I'm still not quite able to reach the desired conclusion...

Okay so the <br /> \omega_n^2<br /> are eigenvalues of the matrix <br /> [m]^{-1}[k]<br />

And I've read that every positive definite matrix is invertible, and its inverse is also positive definite, so that means that if [m] is positive definite, then so is <br /> [m]^{-1}<br />

So we have that both <br /> [m]^{-1}<br /> and <br /> [k]<br /> are positive definite, but in general that does not mean that <br /> [m]^{-1} [k]<br /> is positive definite, does it?
I've read that if two matrices [M] and [N] are positive definite, then their product is positive definite if <br /> [M] [N] = [N] [M]<br />, but this is not the case with <br /> [m]^{-1}<br /> and [k], their product is not commutative in general. So how can we see that <br /> [m]^{-1} [k]<br /> is positive definite?

Thanks for your help!
 
Oh but wait! I just realized that even though [m] and [k] are real symmetric, [m]^{-1}[k] is not even symmetric, so it wouldn't be of any use to prove that [m]^{-1}[k] is positive definite, would it, because we don't know that the eigenvalues are real...

[m]^{-1}[k] =<br /> <br /> \left( \begin{array}{cc}<br /> 1/m_1 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 1/m_2 \\<br /> \end{array} \right) <br /> <br /> \left( \begin{array}{cc}<br /> (k_1 + k_2) &amp; -k_2 \\<br /> -k_2 &amp; k_2 \\<br /> \end{array} \right) <br /> <br /> =<br /> \left( \begin{array}{cc}<br /> (k_1 + k_2)/m_1 &amp; -k_2/m_1 \\<br /> -k_2/m_2 &amp; k_2/m_2 \\<br /> \end{array} \right) <br /> <br /> <br /> <br />

So how do we see that the eigenvalues of [m]^{-1}[k] are real and positive?
 

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