Space Expansion/Time Travel (#IMAN00B)

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    Space Travel
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concepts of space expansion and time travel, particularly in the context of a fictional narrative. Participants explore the implications of an expanding universe on the feasibility of time travel and the physical characteristics of objects over time.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant compares the expansion of the universe to inflating a balloon, questioning how this affects the position of Earth and the nature of time travel to the past.
  • Another participant argues that the size of Earth and its orbit have remained relatively constant, suggesting that the distances defined by forces between particles are not affected by cosmic expansion.
  • There is a discussion about the definition of distance and how it has evolved over time, with references to historical and modern definitions of the meter.
  • Some participants propose that if all matter were to scale uniformly, the dimensions of physical objects would remain unchanged, leading to a hypothetical scenario where time travelers would not appear as giants.
  • One participant emphasizes that time travel is a fictional concept and suggests that while it is acceptable to bend the rules of physics for storytelling, maintaining some level of scientific accuracy can enhance the narrative.
  • A suggestion is made for the original poster to consult Wikipedia for basic physics concepts, particularly in quantum physics and relativity, to better inform their writing.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of space expansion for time travel, with some asserting that physical dimensions would remain unchanged while others explore the complexities of defining distance. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the effects of cosmic expansion on time travel scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the reliance on definitions of distance and the assumptions about the constancy of physical constants over time. The discussion does not resolve the implications of these factors on the feasibility of time travel.

Who May Find This Useful

Writers interested in incorporating scientific concepts into speculative fiction, particularly those exploring themes of time travel and the nature of the universe.

Fluxhavok
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So I'm just getting into physics to research for a short story idea I've had for a while, but I've got a few questions I'm having difficulty finding an answer to.

As the universe expands, does space expand? Like, if someone took a marker and drew a small star on a balloon and then inflated it? The balloon would expand, and so would the star... which brings me to my next question. If I'm correct and space is expanding, someone that wanted to time travel back to Roman times, would be going back to a time when A) the universe wasn't as spread out as it is today (the balloon is less inflated), so the Earth would be in an entirely different place than it is now (not to mention a different place in it's orbit) B) Space itself would be more compact ... so even if they could get to the right place, they would be giants?...

Clearly I'm a n00b, and really have no idea what terminology to use to even ask my question properly. So please don't be too hard on me for not making sense. If you could just direct me to a few n00b friendly books to read, I'd be eternally grateful.
 
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Some time ago Earth was the same size as it is now, and the size of Earth orbit was the same (with regard to small change caused by loss of Sun mass due to emission of light and solar wind). Balloon got expanded, but your small star is made of hard plastic and glued to its surface. All 'small' distances are defined by some forces keeping particles on fixed distances. The distance between neutron and proton in deuterium nucleus results from strong nuclear force, not from Universe geometry. The sizes of atoms, molecules, then sizes of material objects (your foot and whole Earth) are defined by electromagnetic forces between molecules. Distance from Earth to Sun is defined by Kepler laws and conservation laws.

You touched quite deep question: what 'distance' mean? What does it mean that Earth circumference is 40,000 km?
In beginning of 19th century the answer was: that is how we define what 'metre' means (1/10,000 of distance from north pole to equator over the Paris meridian).
In the beginning of 20th century the answer was: you may take a measuring rod from Sevre vault and lay it 10,000 times along the same path. Both the rod and Earth should be distorded the same by any changes to space curvature, so the measured distance must remain unchanged.
This definition of 'metre' is closest to common meaning of distance. Natural units for people are those related to dimension of commonly found objects - e.g. their own feet. As all matter would be equally scaled, the dimensions of physical objects remain the same. Both Gulliver and Lilliputs were about 6 feet tall - their feet. If all dimension scale - there is no way to notice that except of comparison with something which is not affected by rescaling.

Modern definition of 'metre' relates it to the distance light goes in some part of second, while the second is defined as some number of oscillations of Cesium atom. You may ask if such definition might have an effect. In order to do so, some physical 'constants' (like speed of light, electron charge, Planck's h, etc) would have to change along with Universe expansion. Such hypotheses were considered probable and lots of measurement had been done to test if they are really constant. No measureable changes had ever been detected - neither in short term (few years lasting) very precise measurements, nor when comparing billions years old geological and astronomical data with expectations made using modern values of those constants in the apropriate models. Billions years old rocks have such properties as chemistry (using modern values of physical constants) expect them to have.

We believe all local experiments performed billion years ago would lead to the same results as they give now. The only difference is measured distance to far cosmic objects - where the distance is not related to forces/interactions between objects, but rather caused by inertia acting since beginning of the Universe. Small stars glued on balloon remains unchanged, just distance between stars increases. To make this metaphore closer to astronomic observations: don't paint/glue stars, but galaxies, or rather galaxy superclusters.
Distances between stars within single galaxy are also defined by local interaction - Keplerian orbiting around galaxy centre.

BTW.
Romans had smaller feet than we have, and Lucy had even smaller, so the Earth was acually bigger then (if measured in feet) than now. But I won't attribute this to expansion of Universe :-p
 
Last edited:
Fluxhavok said:
... so even if they could get to the right place, they would be giants?...
.

No. This is implicit in xts's response but I think the talk about scale difference could have made it a bit hard for you to get that.

Time travel is pure fiction so if you're going to defy physics in that regard (as many SF writers have done very successfully) your audience is likely to give you some leeway in other areas but it is wise of you to try to get the basics right since one of the successful tenets of SF is to only ask your audience for a willing suspension of disbelief in ONE thing and you've chosen time travel as that thing. It would be good if nothing else in your story defied physics.
 
Fluxhavoc, I suggest hitting up Wikipedia and getting familiar with many of the articles on basic physics, quantum physics, and relativity. You don't need to worry about any of the math or equations really, just get a general understanding of the basics. It really helps!
 

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