The Lord of the Rings: A Discussion Community

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SUMMARY

This forum discussion centers on the complexities and plot holes within J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Hobbit," particularly the feasibility of using eagles for the journey to Mordor. Participants argue that flying on eagles would expose Frodo and Sam to significant dangers, including attacks from orcs and the Nazgûl, as well as the limitations of altitude for the hobbits. Additionally, the conversation touches on the role of Gollum as a guide and the existence of female orcs, with various theories presented regarding their societal structure and breeding. The discussion highlights both the admiration for Tolkien's works and the critical analysis of narrative choices.

PREREQUISITES
  • Familiarity with J.R.R. Tolkien's literary works, particularly "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Hobbit."
  • Understanding of Middle-earth geography and key locations such as Mordor and Gondor.
  • Knowledge of character roles and relationships, including Frodo, Sam, Gollum, and the Nazgûl.
  • Awareness of common themes in fantasy literature, such as heroism, sacrifice, and the nature of evil.
NEXT STEPS
  • Explore the implications of narrative choices in fantasy literature, focusing on plot holes and character motivations.
  • Research the significance of eagles in Tolkien's mythology and their role in the broader narrative.
  • Investigate the societal structures of orcs and other creatures within Middle-earth, including their breeding and roles in warfare.
  • Analyze the character of Gollum and his impact on the story's progression and themes of corruption and redemption.
USEFUL FOR

Fans of J.R.R. Tolkien's works, literary analysts, and anyone interested in exploring the deeper themes and plot intricacies of "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Hobbit."

James Holland
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I was wondering if many members liked the lord of the rings and also it is hard to find people who like to talk about it in person so I thought this could be a place to discuss it anyway.
 
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Considering that The Lord of the Rings, as well as The Hobbit, were published in the 1930 and just recently has 6 movies based on the movies marketed, I would say there are an awful lot of people who like them!
 
I agree however in the area around were i live very few people do
hence i made this thread so that i could talk about them.
 
Alright, what would you like to discuss? I enjoyed the works of J.R.R. Tolkien in my teenage days, including his scholarly work, but can discuss the movies too. What works have you read?

I'm open to arguing some aspects as well. Just shoot... :smile:
 
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i have read most of them
 
what is quite annoying is that every one says that Frodo and Sam should have just flown on the eagles the whole way.
this is just generally stupid as the eagles would of been shot at and almost definitely killed by at least three factions/groups
 
James Holland said:
what is quite annoying is that every one says that Frodo and Sam should have just flown on the eagles the whole way. this is just generally stupid as the eagles would of been shot at and almost definitely killed by at least three factions/groups

I saw a video discussing this very thing.
What I thought was interesting is the guy was arguing that the original plan for Gandalf was to swing back up to the Eagles and fly, but of course the Balrog kinda got in the way.
Basically everything up to that point was a ruse to make it seem like they were going to go on foot.

Then there is the whole "Fly you fools"
 
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cpscdave said:
Then there is the whole "Fly you fools"
well this is just a way of saying run or flee. like in the common Latin phrase Tempus Fugit meaning time fly's or runs away/slips away
 
and also due to Saruman destroying the high pass resulted in them going through the mine of Moria and where they came out would of put them in a yet worse position to fly to Mordor or Gondor
 
  • #10
James Holland said:
what is quite annoying is that every one says that Frodo and Sam should have just flown on the eagles the whole way.
this is just generally stupid as the eagles would of been shot at and almost definitely killed by at least three factions/groups

How is it a stupid idea? Who would shoot or kill them? Shoot them with arrows you mean? It's pretty easy to fly high enough so that arrows won't reach you. The only thing that could really harm the eagles were other flying creatures.
As much as I like LOTR, the eagle thing is a very definite plot hole.
 
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  • #11
well if one were to look at a map of middle Earth one could see that they would be forced to fly over goblins, wild men, uruk hai (also Sauroman) silven elves, wood elves and many more as for the weapons that would be shot at them both bows cross bows ballistas and most importantly Magic. the magic of Sauroman could easily hit and kill eagles the height restraint would be down to the passengers lungs, Gimili may struggle when they get high Aragorn, Boromir, Legolasand and Gandalf would be fine but all four Hobbits would very soon struggle to breath and so the eagles would be forced to fly low enough at least for cross bows and ballistas if not normal bows but also very much so the range of elven bows.
also the eagles were not dragons it would not take much to pierce their skin.
even if by some miracle they made it to Mordor they would be killed in seconds from the orcs ect that guard it and so the fellowship would have to land in Gondor and go on foot from their.
this is also just hoping that the Nazgul don't fly up and kill them in the air.
 
  • #12
micromass said:
How is it a stupid idea? Who would shoot or kill them? Shoot them with arrows you mean? It's pretty easy to fly high enough so that arrows won't reach you. The only thing that could really harm the eagles were other flying creatures.
As much as I like LOTR, the eagle thing is a very definite plot hole.

Very stupid idea to take Gollum, the guide, on long distance eagle-journeys. He would have driven them insane...

How strong are orcs? How much weight can they place behind the bow? How far can that travel when being shot almost straight up into the air? Are these magically embedded arrows/bows? They would want to know that just in case, they wouldn't always be flying in the same elevation during the journey due to numerous factors. What is the highest elevation that would have the most tolerable, safe temperatures/gas exchange efficiency?
 
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  • #13
well the different orcs have different strength but considering they are trained to be warriors from as soon as their pulled out of the ses-pits they all used to be elves so they have a level of bow skill which would lead me to believe that they could shoot very powerfully. accuracy would be the main issue but sheer weight in numbers would remove this issue.
as for how high an eagle can fly with a hobbit on. not very is a brief answer. a bit higher than a average mountain. and as orcs and goblins often live in mountains this might as well be a round about a couple hundred feet (not far for a good archer) the furthest shot on record was 500 meters an orc could look at about 200-300 meters so they would be in range.
and even if the arrows could not reach them the spells easily could.
 
  • #14
this is hoping that they aren't being eaten by nazguls
 
  • #15
Where are the female Orcs?
 
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  • #16
James Holland said:
this is hoping that they aren't being eaten by nazguls
Did they know about the flying serpent-thingys the Nazgul flew at the time of the Council of Elrond?
 
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  • #17
Noisy Rhysling said:
Where are the female Orcs?

I would assume the Orks are mules. They seem to be bred and raised in the sorcerus equivalent of a breeding creche.
 
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  • #18
Noisy Rhysling said:
Where are the female Orcs?
That sort of question will get you into a lot of trouble when traveling through Orc territory.
 
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  • #19
Noisy Rhysling said:
Where are the female Orcs?

They are at home and quite comfortable.

Tolkien says there must have been female orcs: http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/041305.html

Tolkien was a gentleman, he probably figured his orcs are excellent providers and don't make/let their women fight in wars.
 
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  • #20
I wonder if they had tea with the Entwives?
 
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  • #21
Fervent Freyja said:
Tolkien was a gentleman, he probably figured his orcs are excellent providers and don't make/let their women fight in wars.

Also, because they're out and about trying the exterminate all the rest of humanity, they're never sitting around the house taking up space and getting on your nerves.
 
  • #22
rootone said:
That sort of question will get you into a lot of trouble when traveling through Orc territory

Yeah, and it's a real shame too, because Orcs are so easygoing and personable otherwise.
 
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  • #23
Khatti said:
Also, because they're out and about trying the exterminate all the rest of humanity, they're never sitting around the house taking up space and getting on your nerves.
I wonder if they had "Take your orclet to the slaughter" day?
 
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  • #24
Noisy Rhysling said:
Where are the female Orcs?
honestly i don,t know where they would be but i do no they give birth to litters of orclets and these burst through their stomach a bit like alien and then eat their own mothers alive. but this would take ages so mordor and isengard ect would tend to rely on ses pits
 
  • #25
Noisy Rhysling said:
Did they know about the flying serpent-thingys the Nazgul flew at the time of the Council of Elrond?
well they defiantly new about them in-fact they are baby dragons of the same species as smaug but they cannot breath fire or have a nearly indestructible hides. the dwarves of the iron hills started a program to breed the same beasts for riding in battle. However I have no idea if the council knew of the wring wraiths riding them.
 
  • #26
what is a far bigger plot hole than the eagles is Tom Bombadil as he clearly stated that all frodo would need to do is call his name to receive assistance from Tom who is one of the most powerful people in middle Earth and so could easily face either a orc pack or a couple of Nazgul. maybe not all nine but at least three
 

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