The meaning of the curvature term

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    Curvature Term
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of the curvature term \( k \) in the Friedmann-Robertson-Walker (FRW) equation, particularly its implications for the geometry of the universe. Participants explore the dimensionality of \( k \), its possible values, and its relationship to the scale factor \( a \) and the radius of curvature.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about whether \( k \) can be fractional, noting that it is sometimes described as being limited to -1, 0, or +1, while others suggest it could take on other values.
  • Another participant clarifies that \( a \) is the scale factor and not the radius of curvature, and distinguishes between two versions of \( k \): a dimensional one that can be positive, negative, or zero, and a dimensionless one that is normalized to -1, 0, or +1.
  • Some participants assert that in a closed universe, the scale factor corresponds to the radius of curvature, and emphasize that \( k \) in the equation represents spatial curvature.
  • There is a discussion about the normalization of \( k \) and how it can be redefined to maintain the accuracy of the Friedmann equation, with suggestions of using different symbols for the dimensional and dimensionless versions of \( k \).
  • One participant mentions a specific form of the Friedmann equation that incorporates the radius of curvature and discusses how different coordinate systems can affect the representation of curvature in the metric.
  • Another participant acknowledges a misunderstanding in their notes regarding the values of \( \frac{1}{R^2} \) and reflects on the clarification provided by others.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether \( k \) can be fractional, and there are multiple competing views regarding the definitions and implications of \( k \) in the context of the FRW equation.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the definitions of curvature and the assumptions made about the scale factor and the radius of curvature. The normalization process and its implications for the values of \( k \) are also not fully resolved.

Loro
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I just wanted to make sure whether I've understood something correctly

In the FRW equation:

(\frac{ \dot a}{a})^2 = \frac{8 \pi G}{3} \rho - \frac{k}{a^2}

...there is this curvature term. I'm confused about the meaning of this k. Sometimes they say it can ONLY be -1 , 0 or +1. Sometimes they say it's smaller, bigger or equal zero. So can it or can it not be fractional? If it can - what does it mean?

My understanding so far is, that this whole term is the Gaussian curvature:

\pm \frac{1}{a^2}

Where a is the radius of curvature - and it changes with time as the universe expands;

And so k is there just to provide an appropriate sign for the three cases: flat, spherical or hyperbolic geometry.

Am I right, or can it be fractional?
 
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a is not the radius of curvature, it is the scale factor.

There are two different versions of k that can appear in the RW metric. One has dimension and can be either >0, <0, or =0. This k is equal to 1/R^2 where R is the radius of curvature.

The other version of k is dimensionless. It has been normalized somehow (can't remember exact details). Therefore it is either 1, -1, or 0.

I think that, with the Friedmann equation in the form that you gave, the k has to be the dimensional one. Therefore it is the spatial curvature

One book I have uses kappa for the dimensional one and k for the dimensionless one.
 
Last edited:
cepheid said:
a is not the radius of curvature, it is the scale factor.
In a closed universe, the scale factor *is* the radius of curvature.
I think that, with the Friedmann equation in the form that you gave, the k has to be the dimensional one. Therefore it is the spatial curvature
I think you are making this more confusing than needed. The term k/a^2 gives the spatial curvature -- it is the Gaussian curvature of spatial slices of constant time. In the equation that Loro has written, k is clearly a constant. It is equal to 1, 0, or -1 depending on the geometry.
 
cepheid said:
The other version of k is dimensionless. It has been normalized somehow (can't remember exact details). Therefore it is either 1, -1, or 0.
There are a couple of ways of doing it. One is to simply redefine a so that the entire term, k/a^2 takes on the correct value.

With this definition, the first Friedmann equation as written by Loro remains accurate. But by convention we usually take a=1 at the present time, and we don't have the freedom to pick the overall scaling of a if we make that choice.

Another way of doing it is to add a separate "radius of curvature" term, which requires replacing k with, for example, kR^2.
 
Chalnoth said:
There are a couple of ways of doing it. One is to simply redefine a so that the entire term, k/a^2 takes on the correct value.

With this definition, the first Friedmann equation as written by Loro remains accurate. But by convention we usually take a=1 at the present time, and we don't have the freedom to pick the overall scaling of a if we make that choice.

Another way of doing it is to add a separate "radius of curvature" term, which requires replacing k with, for example, kR^2.

I don't think I said anything wrong, you are just talking about the details of the normalization that I couldn't remember. The way I learned it was that\left(\frac{\dot{a}}{a}\right)^2 = \frac{8\pi G}{3}\rho - \frac{1}{a^2\mathcal{R}^2}where \mathcal{R} is the radius of curvature at the present day. You can also write this term as \kappa/a^2 where \kappa = 1/\mathcal{R}^2 and κ is either > 0, or < 0, or = 0. This κ is what I think of as the "spatial curvature." This \mathcal{R} is the thing that appears in the RW metric, i.e. ds^2 = dt^2 - a^2(t)[dr^2 +\mathcal{R}^2 \sin^2(r/\mathcal{R})(d\theta^2 + \sin^2\theta d\phi^2)]

Now the book I have then takes a couple of other extra steps. First, you can apparently replace your co-moving radial distance coordinate "r" with co-moving angular diameter distance r1 instead, where r_1 = \mathcal{R}\sin(r/\mathcal{R}). With this substitution, the metric apparently becomesds^2 = dt^2 - a^2(t)\left[\frac{dr_1^2}{1 - \kappa r_1^2} +r_1^2(d\theta^2 + \sin^2\theta d\phi^2)\right]The final substitution that the book mentions is that you rescale your radial distance coordinate so that r22 = κr12. Then the metric becomes ds^2 = dt^2 - R_1^2(t)\left[\frac{dr_2^2}{1 - k r_2^2} +r_2^2(d\theta^2 + \sin^2\theta d\phi^2)\right] where k = +1, 0, or -1 for universes with spherical, flat, and hyperbolic geometries respectively. The book points out that under this rescaling, R_1(t) = \mathcal{R}a(t) so that at the present day, the value of your "scale factor" R1 is \mathcal{R} rather than unity. So I can understand what you mean by the scale factor representing the curvature after this normalization has been done. The stuff I outlined above was the basis for what I said in my first post.
 
cepheid said:
I don't think I said anything wrong,
No, I was just trying to clarify.
 
Thank you all,

The explanation of Cepheid clarifies that a lot. When I look at my notes now, that's actually exactly what my lecturer did, but then I have in my notes that \frac{1}{R^2} is either ±1 or 0, which is obviously wrong...

So in one form of the metric (one using the same units for all coordinates) there's \kappa = \frac{1}{R^2} , and when we for some reason rescale our radial coordinate we get the other k = ±1 or 0 .
 

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