The Role of Philosophy in Science: Separating Fact from Fiction

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The discussion highlights a divide between scientists and philosophers, with some scientists dismissing philosophy as irrelevant or unscientific. Participants argue that while philosophy can aid in understanding theoretical frameworks, many philosophers lack sufficient scientific knowledge to contribute meaningfully to modern physics. The conversation also touches on the role of philosophy in addressing the implications of theories like string theory, which some argue straddle the line between science and philosophy due to their speculative nature. Concerns are raised about the traditional scientific method's applicability in fields like economics and psychology, suggesting that philosophical inquiry is crucial in these areas. Ultimately, the debate underscores the complex relationship between philosophy and science, with calls for a more integrated approach to understanding scientific theories.
  • #91
metacristi said:
Well what can I say more other than elegantly advise you to read directly what Duhem,Kuhn,Lakatos and Feyerabend have to say...I am not a teacher and anyway it is not my goal to teach here.All I can tell you is that,indeed, they have strong reasons for their views.All unbiased researches into the subject can easily see this (having also the necessary baggage of philosophical knowledge of course).We are wasting our time,honestly.

Not that I agree entirely with them,no I have my own vision somewhere between Lakatos and Feyerabend.That is I still support the 'method' stance,nonwithstanding that a minimal method,the 'reliabilist' account does vindicate such a view (based on fecundity,the fact that new paradigms does unite facts considered previously as unconnected and not lastly the fact that the vast majority of accepted knowledge inferred using Mill's methods are very stable in time).In other words I advocate the view that we are still having,currently at least,more 'positive' reasons (including purely logical ones) pro method though only a very flexible one.

This in spite of the fact that nontrivial changes do occur,we have clear historical examples,sometimes even contradicting scientific knowledge inferred using the most reliable 'tool' we have had so far,namely Mill's methods.Empiricism alone might be not enough but,as I said,we still have more positive reasons to prefer a 'weak' form of realism and generally to grant a fallible epistemological privilege to a (minimal) method stance.

The reality is that science is not the unassailable monolith in which some like to believe,it is merely our best 'tool' so far to make sense of the observed realities.Moreover the strong,popperian,fallibilism has problems,this is long ago accepted by all serious philosophers of science.At most we are entitled to talk of a weak form of fallibilism.Finally if the hypothetico-deductive method were so compelling then no would still bother now to revitalize the old inductivist account.Not successful yet,so far at least.

I'm sorry, but I don't think I am smart enough to decipher what you said, especially when you refuse to include concrete examples to illustrate what you are trying to get across. So I won't take up anymore of your time.

Zz.
 
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  • #92
ZapperZ said:
I'm sorry, but I don't think I am smart enough to decipher what you said, especially when you refuse to include concrete examples to illustrate what you are trying to get across. So I won't take up anymore of your time.

Zz.

Fair.But ignorance alone never justify a stance,though.I have never claimed I am 'smart',I only presented some of the results in the philosophy of science and some purely personal views which,it happens,due to my lack of proficiency in english I'm sure,you cannot understand from my account.Period.Thus I invited you elegantly to read some primary sources directly in english.This is the best way for you to understand better,simply contradicting me without really understanding is of no use.For both.

all the best

metacristi
 
  • #93
Les Sleeth said:
No, I definitely do not think that is even remotely the point. I think the issues of this debate need to be made more clear. I read what one side says and it seems irrelevant to what the other side is pointing out.

I'm not syaing scinec is the be all and end all, what I am saying is that philsophy is highly subjective, and because it is so subjective I see no objective great difference between a professor of philsophy and an armchair philospher like Rab C. Nesbitt ( obscure refernce to an incomphrenhisble Scottish sitcom). I also wonder what the value is of much (though though as I said before not all) of the modern acadmeic study of philsophy.
 
  • #94
metacristi said:
Fair.But ignorance alone never justify a stance,though.I have never claimed I am 'smart',I only presented some of the results in the philosophy of science and some purely personal views which,it happens,due to my lack of proficiency in english I'm sure,you cannot understand from my account.Period.Thus I invited you elegantly to read some primary sources directly in english.This is the best way for you to understand better,simply contradicting me without really understanding is of no use.For both.

all the best

metacristi

Put the words of Zz in the right perspective. What he meant was that you need to be more clear. When reading your post i felt the same thing. I stated many times that it is real easy to take in expesive terms that can be interpreted in various ways. What is your point and what do you mean ? Explaining something difficult in difficult terms is easy
explaining something difficult in easy terms is difficult.

I am not saying the explanation cannot be difficult yet it needs to be clear and instructive, which most of the philosopher-posts are NOT.

regards
marlon
 
  • #95
jcsd said:
I'm not syaing scinec is the be all and end all, what I am saying is that philsophy is highly subjective, and because it is so subjective I see no objective great difference between a professor of philsophy and an armchair philospher like Rab C. Nesbitt ( obscure refernce to an incomphrenhisble Scottish sitcom). I also wonder what the value is of much (though though as I said before not all) of the modern acadmeic study of philsophy.

Your opinion that philosopohy is "highly subjective" may or may not be true depending on how philosophy is practiced. Over and above that I think there is a question about the value of subjectivity. If you are talking about being subject to the forces of past conditioning or one's own likes and dislikes, passions, mental defects, etc. then most of us agree that that sort of subjectivity is undesirable in the pursuit of knowledge.

But what about sincerity? Sincerity is a subjective property of consciousness, and anyone who lacks it cannot be trusted in epistomological endeavers whether scientific or philosophical. Just how much of our own being do we undervalue and remain ignorant of? Well, Socrates long ago suggested that knowing oneself is a path to wisdom. Does that really make any sense or was he just talking through his hat (or whatever they wore then)?

I wish we could throw out the term "philosophy" and just talk about what we want here at PF. If someone only wants to study the structure of the universe, I don't think anyone around here will object. But you must realize that the average person is thinking and wondering about other things. And if they are going to wonder, wouldn't it at least be nice to be able to encourage them to wonder with as many facts as possible, as well as not to wonder something for long which facts clearly contradict.

It is a great thing to see someone start to think more clearly, I love it. And I love the idea of a dedicated crew committed to that. The kicker is, to encourage such thinking you can't narrow people to only mechanistic stuff and that which can be proven beyond all doubt. Unless it is open, and more open than the hard core empiricist probably feels comfortable with, creative thinkers won't participate. Besides, as some have been pointing out lately even scientists don't mind entertaining a bit of science exotica such as time travel (which I personally believe is nonsense), bubbling multiple universes, computer consciousness . . .

The negative generalizations about philosophy I've heard over the last few days is a little discouraging to someone like me who does want to keep the traditional rationalistic approach of philosophy out of PF (the same thing you dislike), and who had hopes of gradually the turning the focus toward encouraging fact-based thinking and learning good logic. Oh well. :cool:
 
  • #96
Just my $.02 (I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty of this): I participated in a long thread in another forum entitled "Is Science a Belief System?" You can imagine how it went, but what I got out of it was the thread starter, a philosopher, was bitter about the fact that much of what at one time was the domain of philosophy has been taken over by science. He perceived a conflict between the two, much like the science/religion conflict, over which discipline should be answering which questions. Like the science/religion conflict, its largely one sided: scientists don't care about such boundaries, they simply answer questions they can answer. As science progresses more questions can be answered, and the domain of science increases. Philosophers (some, not all) are fighting to keep a division that scienists don't even think exists. Its a battle only they are fighting and one they can't win.

Please do not construe this post as an attack on philosophy: as I said, the fight is largely one-sided. My personal opinion is that philosophy has a place, but the domain is shrinking (it will never disappear) as science progresses. Philosophers need to accept that.
 
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  • #97
russ_watters said:
Please do not construe this post as an attack on philosophy: as I said, the fight is largely one-sided. My personal opinion is that philosophy has a place, but the domain is shrinking (it will never disappear) as science progresses. Philosophers need to accept that.

I don't think anything you said is offensive. But I also don't believe you or anyone else I've been debating has really understood my point about philosophy either. I don't want to be disrespectful to academic philosphers who might be participating at PF, but I can't help but agree with you that traditional philosophy is not only shrinking, it's virtually dead. The traditional areas that are still relevant are logic, and the epistomological successes that helped establish empirical methods.

So I think the common complaint in this debate has been about the aspects of traditional philosophy which are now irrelevant. The thing is, I personally agree about that! So what the heck am I talking about then? I will try to find time in the next few days to start a new thread proposing a modernized philosophy that is more relevant to what we now know "works." I hope you and others disenchanted with philosophy will offer constructive opinions about it.
 
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  • #98
I may not know much philosophy nor much of science but here's what I think of the whole issue.

I personally don't think that philsophy should intrude on the basic scientific method and should not be involved in the forumulation of any scientific theory. I don't think that that is in the realm of philosophy, and i only think that philosophy should come into play only when after a theory is formulated and then philosophy comes in and puts in place what this theory means for our existence and our place as human beings in the cosmos.

The thing also, which I find a little flawed in philosophy is that logic is often mistaken as intuition. The scientific method is indeed an intuitive one, the process of doing the calculus, the math, the experimentation is definitely and intuitive one, but the conclusions may not always be so. Things such as QM especially, it tells me alot, that there is indeed a certain part of the cosmos which are simply not part of our understanding (ie. intuition).

Which is why i see the physical sciences as a better link to the secrets of our universe, it is because that it is hardly bound by the limits of our experiences and current perceptions of reality. It sounds abit on the positivist side, but I'm not advocating that the physical sciences is an entirely objective pursuit.

Of course, I'm not discounting the usefulness of philosophy, I'm saying that as much as the physical sciences is not all-encompassing, neither is philosophy. And as much as the physical sciences does a pretty decent job in telling us about why a ball moves the way it does, philosophy too tells us about the meaning of our life here, among others.

And neither do I think that just because philosophy disagrees among itself a fair bit, it does not mean that it is not an entirely reliable study either. I believe that all of us as scientists one way or another, we live with a certain amount of uncertainty in our life, and realize that we don't know the answers to everything.

therefore, i don't think that philosophy should dictate how stuff actually works, but rather provide meaning to the answers which the physical sciences have given.
 
  • #99
Thanks for your reply miso...

marlon
 
  • #100
This is your philosophy
Critical Point: April 2002

When Physics World ran a special poll last year to find out how physicists think philosophically, more than 500 readers replied. Here are the results.

Everybody - including scientists - makes seat-of-the-pants practical judgements about what's real and what's not. The common-sense assumptions underlying these judgements can be unrecognized, inconsistent and even untenable; they can be home-grown, inherited and absorbed from others. But when someone is engaged in an activity as complex as science, it is almost impossible to avoid making such practical judgements. No matter how implicit and readily revised these judgements may be, they are based on preconceptions of what the world consists of and what the world's most important distinctions and categories are - in other words of how it all hangs together. [continued with results]
http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/4/2/1
 
  • #101
Ivan Seeking said:

Except that there is ONE important factor that is left out - that the "seat of the pants" and other methods of figuring out what to do does NOT necessarily equate to what is eventually excepted! Each one of us pursue the line of inquiry or reasoning based on what we perceive to be correct. During the process of inquiry of something that is not yet known, there can be MANY lines of inquiry. The mechanism of high-Tc superconductor is a prime example. There are groups that are pursuing magnetism/spin fluctuations as the leading candidate, while other are pushing for phonons. There are groups that are pointing to "stripes", while others are sticking by BCS-like mechanisms, etc. Things like these are NOT uncommon on a research front area.

However, the final acceptance and consensus are NOT based on preferences, "seat of the pants" decisions, inherited ideas, preconceptions, etc. Nature still is the ultimate dictator, and this is independent of one's preconception or philosphy on anything.

Zz.
 
  • #102
ZapperZ said:
However, the final acceptance and consensus are NOT based on preferences, "seat of the pants" decisions, inherited ideas, preconceptions, etc. Nature still is the ultimate dictator, and this is independent of one's preconception or philosphy on anything.

I think you are talking here more about the development of theory whereas the article talks more of ontological interpretation of theory. Perhaps nature can dictate formulaic relationships to us fairly straightforwardly, but it can't dictate what these things mean on a deeper level. I imagine that 100% of physicists agree how to describe kinetic energy mathematically and the role that it plays in physical dynamics and so on, but apparently only 67% of the physicists polled for this article can venture to say that kinetic energy is 'real.' Thus, while the functional role of KE in physics may be beyond dispute, its ontological nature is undecided.

In general, every scientist should agree on the validity and utility of theoretical constructs that can accommodate existing empirical results and faithfully predict new ones, but not every scientist will agree on how to interpret what those theories are telling us about the 'ontological furniture' of reality. These kind of second order ontological interpretations, I believe, are the things that the article states are based on preferences, inherited ideas, etc.
 
  • #103
hypnagogue said:
I think you are talking here more about the development of theory whereas the article talks more of ontological interpretation of theory. Perhaps nature can dictate formulaic relationships to us fairly straightforwardly, but it can't dictate what these things mean on a deeper level. I imagine that 100% of physicists agree how to describe kinetic energy mathematically and the role that it plays in physical dynamics and so on, but apparently only 67% of the physicists polled for this article can venture to say that kinetic energy is 'real.' Thus, while the functional role of KE in physics may be beyond dispute, its ontological nature is undecided.

In general, every scientist should agree on the validity and utility of theoretical constructs that can accommodate existing empirical results and faithfully predict new ones, but not every scientist will agree on how to interpret what those theories are telling us about the 'ontological furniture' of reality. These kind of second order ontological interpretations, I believe, are the things that the article states are based on preferences, inherited ideas, etc.

If you ask anyone this question "Is it impossible for me to take these pieces of a broken vase, throw it on the ground, and have it spontaneously reformed back into the orginal vase?", you will get the definite answer "Yes, it is impossible". But ask a physicist that question, and you will get "Improbable, but not impossible" as an answer.

Now, how does that related to that question you cited? This is because the question was asked to a bunch of physicists to related something that is well-defined (kinetic energy), to something that isn't ("real"). Philosphers LOVE things like this. They can talk about "real" and "reality" ad nauseum without needing to come to any kind of closure. We don't! When a philospher ask me if so-and-so is "real", I would be VERY hesitant to answer, because I have no idea what he/she means as "real". Would it be the same as what *I* would consider to be real as in qualitatively and quantitatively verfied?

Ask that question again to high school physics students, or even undergraduates, and you will probabily get a definite "Yes, KE is real!". When one doesn't know any better, it appears simplistic and obvious. However, when one learns a lot more and in detail, then even a vase that has been broken into a million pieces still has a chance to be reassembled back into the original object simply by throwing it onto the floor! The lack of an answer on the "reality" of KE isn't because "ontological nature is undecided", it is because it is a question that is vague and has no quantitative, testable value!

But here's the kicker! Even if you are correct, and that the ontological nature of KE is undecided, I will then ask "why does this matter"? It is obvous that physics can function AND work, without having the need to know such things. This is consistent with what I have been trying to say since the very beginning of this mess - that physicists and the working of physics are not in dire need to answer and address these things. It has worked without it. This is a fact, not a conjecture. Now maybe you, other philosphers, and the general public do. Then I would say, go at it!

Zz.
 
  • #104
hypnagogue said:
I think you are talking here more about the development of theory whereas the article talks more of ontological interpretation of theory.

Implicit philosophies also play a large role in determining the next question asked; given what we "know" right now. The next question may be the most important question ever asked.

Also, right now, string theorists proceed on a philosophical, not an empirical basis.

Finally, this discussion is philosophical. Therefore philosophy plays a role in science.
 
  • #105
Ivan Seeking said:
Implicit philosophies also play a large role in determining the next question asked; given what we "know" right now. The next question may be the most important question ever asked.

Also, right now, string theorists proceed on a philosophical, not an empirical basis.

Finally, this discussion is philosophical. Therefore philosophy plays a role in science.

I must be dense. Somehow, there is a big leap between "this discussion is philosophical" and "therefore, philosophy plays a role in science". I do not see a logical connection between these two statements.

Zz.
 
  • #106
marlon said:
Put the words of Zz in the right perspective. What he meant was that you need to be more clear. When reading your post i felt the same thing. I stated many times that it is real easy to take in expesive terms that can be interpreted in various ways. What is your point and what do you mean ? Explaining something difficult in difficult terms is easy
explaining something difficult in easy terms is difficult.

I am not saying the explanation cannot be difficult yet it needs to be clear and instructive, which most of the philosopher-posts are NOT.

regards
marlon

And Metacrista has given you some links to read that will be more clear. Has anyone read them?
 
  • #107
ZapperZ said:
Now, how does that related to that question you cited? This is because the question was asked to a bunch of physicists to related something that is well-defined (kinetic energy), to something that isn't ("real"). Philosphers LOVE things like this. They can talk about "real" and "reality" ad nauseum without needing to come to any kind of closure. We don't! When a philospher ask me if so-and-so is "real", I would be VERY hesitant to answer, because I have no idea what he/she means as "real". Would it be the same as what *I* would consider to be real as in qualitatively and quantitatively verfied?

From the article: "Realism is the view that things in the world exist that are not of our own making - independent of human perception and thought - and that scientific theories are true if they faithfully correspond in some way to these things."

I haven't scoured the rest of the article to find a specific definition of "real," but from the definition of realism it seems safe to say that something is "real" if it exists independent of human thought and perception. So the question "is X real?" would seem to be just "does X exist 'out there,' or is it just a theoretical or perceptual construct 'in the head'?" It's unclear to me after browsing the article again whether the author actually defined the term 'real' in this way for his respondents, or just let them put their own spin on the word. Obviously if it was the latter, then we can't tell much from the poll results. But if it was the former, I think the term is well-defined enough to begin to tell us something legitimate about the physicists' varying ontological stances.

But here's the kicker! Even if you are correct, and that the ontological nature of KE is undecided, I will then ask "why does this matter"? It is obvous that physics can function AND work, without having the need to know such things. This is consistent with what I have been trying to say since the very beginning of this mess - that physicists and the working of physics are not in dire need to answer and address these things. It has worked without it. This is a fact, not a conjecture. Now maybe you, other philosphers, and the general public do. Then I would say, go at it!

I don't get why you're so militant about this. I don't say that because I disagree with you, but rather because I completely agree! Physics is in no dire need to answer metaphysical questions, of course not (sounds rather obvious in those terms). Physics gets along fine without any major contributions from philosophy-- agreed. I'm not trying to point out a major flaw in physics or advocate a renovation of how it's done.

As to the question "why does it matter," the simple answer is that some people are curious and want to know what the world is like! Even if it doesn't matter a whit to the practical applications of quantum mechanics, some people are just genuinely curious to know what it all means for how the world is and how it works. Could it really be that something like the many worlds interpretation is true? Perhaps we can't conclusively answer such a question, but that doesn't necessarily make it uninteresting or not worth inquiring about.
 
  • #108
hypnagogue

Physics is in no dire need to answer metaphysical questions, of course not (sounds rather obvious in those terms). Physics gets along fine without any major contributions from philosophy-- agreed. I'm not trying to point out a major flaw in physics or advocate a renovation of how it's done.

Well the majority of the philosophers of science (by the way almost all have scientific training being physicists and so on at base) are no more so sure that the difference between science and metaphysics is so clear cut as Sir Karl thought once and how many scientists still believe even now.

The reality is that the history of science,what happens now at the frontiers of science and even logic itself have shown that popperian falsificationism is at least not satisfactory.Any unbiased course in philosophy of science point to this,presenting also the logical difficulties of falsificationism (as happened once with logical positivism-totally unsatisfactory on logical grounds).

Even if we accept the revised version of falsificationism,which require the unity of the theories (in the Ayer's sense,but without making any reference to weak 'verification' or meaning) we still have the problem of key unobservables in very successful otherwise scientific theories.

Even if we could 'verify' them somehow indirectly in a crucial experiment (of the type of that of Rutherford which finally convinced even physicists to accept the existence of atoms) we still have the problem of theory ladeness.

Logically it is still possible that some very fruitful otherwise theoretical concepts (such 'entities' are not testable in isolation) do not exist in reality.Thus is conceivable,as a possibility,that further developments would require to renounce at them altoghether in future theory making (not only at some minor attributes attached to them)!This 'mere' possibility (toghether with the possibility of Quinean underdetermination) and the Duhemian underdetermination (which is a fact in spite of some here failing to understand it's importance) is more than enough to not be able to talk of a clear demarcation between science and metaphysics.

Neither are we allowed to grant to a scientific method based on fallibilism and falsificationism (even methods going well beyond the mere popperian falsificationism) a perpetual epistemological privilege.Moreover if strong Quinean underdetermination (irrespective [of] data) were proved to be more than a mere possibility then we would not be even entitled to talk of epistemological privilege of science (based on fallibilism and intersubjectivity)...

Some feyerabendists take the strong underedetemination as granted by I argue that we do not have yet sufficient reasons to believe this (finding an alien civilisation would be very instructive for,if the strong underdetermination thesis is right,then we should expect that their set of scientific-in physics at least-enunciations are totally different,anyway very different,from our's,after the 'translation' in a human language of course).

Now all this does not mean that modern philosophers of science want the demise of falsificationism,no.Popper's version of falsificationism involve a methodological choice,counting only as a mere logical argument,favorizing falsifiable hypotheses.Based on the common sense,logical,expectation that a good model of the universe must have internal unity and coherence,must make novel,testable,predictions and resist severe attempts at potential falsification ('corroboration' of the theory).It [has problems] but is,still,a good criterion,though in itself insufficient.

The idea is that falsificationism alone is one of the [key] criterions we should use but this in no way should restriction the freedom of movement (in the light shed by the clear limits of falsificationism).Indeed sometimes ad hoc hypotheses deserve to be part of science,to be the first choice program more exactly (though such ad hoc hypotheses are metaphysical in the popperian methodology).

Not all ad hoc hypotheses are on the same level of rationality,in spite of the fact that we might have problems even here we can still define a clear ladder of rational preferences (whilst still taking in account all proposals,even those who seem not reasonable at a certain moment).

The key factor is that ad hoc hypotheses should solve some key 'puzzles' or anomalies.Additionally we can define an orientative 'official' ladder of preferences,that is what programmes ought to be pursued as the first choice and so on (if exist more proposals).But this 'official' list (based on previous experience) in no way reastrict the freedom of scientists who can have their 'private' list of preferences.The idea is that finally to obtain a program which fully comply with the standard popperian requirements.In enough many cases ad hoc hypotheses initially did lead to full programmes,as history of science do prove plenty.

This was the case with the quanta hypothesis or with the neutrino hypothesis at their time (from what I've read Pauli writes somewhere that even if he and his colleagues were '[embarassed]' first of the totally ad hoc character of the neutrino hypothesis they still thought that it was much more than mere 'metaphysics').

Sure it is possible that some of those might not prove capable to help the conjectures they are part of to become theoretically and empirically evolving on medium term.However there is no need to keep them inside science on long term (or continuing to prefer them as the first choice program) if we have sufficient reasons against this (the program is stagnant,degenerative or other programmes are progressive,much more successful).

There is no mistake to proceed so for anyway in the light of what I said before (the 'normal science' itself is a mere program on which scientists spend more of their efforts trying to develop it further).Basically nothing is indispensable.



Let me explain my point of view from a different perspective (above what I said before).Well all (at least in physics,but this is valid in broad lines for science in general) all existing scientific programmes counting as 'normal science' have at least puzzles (facts not accommodated yet within theory,the 'problems' of Popper) if not anomalies (but much more often they have).

The first task of scientists,in the scientific tradition,is the accomodation of those puzzles within the existing system,paradigm.Thus even in cases that a paradigm considered as 'normal science' become degenerative (more and more puzzles,at least,do accumulate) scientists still try to stick to the letter with the existing paradigm,still try to accommodate all those puzzles or anomalies inside the existing normal science.

This does not really let enough space for creativity,scientists tend to not follow more variants in the same time and devise potentially new hypotheses (whilst still spending their most efforts by trying to accommodate the puzzles within the existing paradigm).On the contrary they tend to grant to the existing paradigm the capacity to explain those puzzles later,in the vrtue of scientific tradition and epistemological conditioning during the years of learning.

This could lead at least to important detours.I'd argue that instead of attaching to the existing paradigm and not trying to devise alternatives until much later (by pursuing the existing program until much later as the main choice,the only choice in many cases) it would be much more useful from the good beginning (at all times as a matter of fact) to devise as many as possible alternatives (as I've argued before we can define a ladder of preferences for them) though they seem totally unreasonable at a certain moment.

I argue that is a legitimate action sometime to prefer other programmes,as the primary choice,in the process of theoretical development,which solve a certain 'puzzle',by using new theoretical concepts if 'puzzles' begin to pile up,even when there exist only few.The first choice on that ladder of preferences among different ad hoc hypotheses (as the main choice only,without renouncing to implicate actively on other paths) is the addition of new 'constructs',totally coherent with previous knowledge.

They might seem ad hoc at a certain moment but further theoretical and empirical work could prove that they represent indispensable constructs,enabling a greater fecundity for the theories incorporating them.It deserves sometime to follow such paths,especially when such ad hoc constructs 'fit' naturally with the other parts of the existing accepted enunciations.

In the latter cases scientists might accept those constructs as part of the existing normal paradigm itself.As such not only that they try to find further direct or indirect empirical support for that construct [in a key experiment] (or merely theoretical support),that is try to make them 'reliable concepts' within that paradigm,but they USE THEM (even when still ad hoc) together with other enunciations,in other,TOTALLY UNRELATED,'problems' (in other,higher level,sciences for example).

There is no mistake to do so since scientists use indispensable nonobservables in certain successful theories to explain 'puzzles' in other sciences even though those entities could be only some constructs which happen to 'work'.This is possible we do not have sufficient reasons to think otherwise,unfortunately the 'no miracle' argument is,still,not sound.

I mean that those unobservables do make testable predictions in conjunction with other enunciations but they are not testable in isolation-there is no known separate experiment which to 'confirm' directly or indirectly their existence.Anyway indirect confirmation involve an inductive process,using often Mill's methods,and might [also] be theory ladden.Nothing impedes the possibility that intial ad hoc hypotheses could lead to huge 'leap' ahead.What is clear for all unbiased philosophers is that the history of science proves plenty that a too rigid method is not the fastest way toward 'success' (understood as mere fecundity).
 
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  • #109
Fliption said:
And Metacrista has given you some links to read that will be more clear. Has anyone read them?

I am just wondering why you guys are always referring to links and articles for clarification. Why can't you just post some clear explainatory answers to our questions whithout us having to read articles. The real scientists here do not make reference to some article in order to make a point in this thread. I do not bore you with articles on QFT or GTR in order to make my point. Please, don't hide behind someone else by quoting some article or some other socalled philosopher. The intention of this thread was to discuss personal opinions on philosophy and clear out the most common misconceptions of philosophy...YOU NEED TO EXPLAIN TO US, not the other way around...
just my opinion though...

regards
marlon
 
  • #110
hypnagogue said:
It's unclear to me after browsing the article again whether the author actually defined the term 'real' in this way for his respondents, or just let them put their own spin on the word. Obviously if it was the latter, then we can't tell much from the poll results. But if it was the former, I think the term is well-defined enough to begin to tell us something legitimate about the physicists' varying ontological stances.

Unfortunately, without knowing such things, this whole discussion is moot. We might be arguing a point that isn't "real". Ivan Seeking should not have brought it up in the first place.

I don't get why you're so militant about this. I don't say that because I disagree with you, but rather because I completely agree! Physics is in no dire need to answer metaphysical questions, of course not (sounds rather obvious in those terms). Physics gets along fine without any major contributions from philosophy-- agreed. I'm not trying to point out a major flaw in physics or advocate a renovation of how it's done.

However, it appears that the issue seems to not want to go away, maybe not due to you, but due to others who seem to want to keep resurrecting this. If we agree on the point above, then stick a fork in me because I'm done!

As to the question "why does it matter," the simple answer is that some people are curious and want to know what the world is like! Even if it doesn't matter a whit to the practical applications of quantum mechanics, some people are just genuinely curious to know what it all means for how the world is and how it works. Could it really be that something like the many worlds interpretation is true? Perhaps we can't conclusively answer such a question, but that doesn't necessarily make it uninteresting or not worth inquiring about.

I should have made it clearer. When I asked "why does it matter", it was within the context of physics and the working of physics. I have ZERO problem with people wanting to know more and asking questions. What I do have a problem with is people who do not know any better foolishly presuming that the superficial knowledge that they have learned about physics (or on anything for that matter) accurately reflects the body of knowledge physics and the practice of physics. Just go ahead and skim through your Philosophy section and tell me that this does not happen. And I'm not just referring to quackeries either, which occurs everywhere no matter how vigilant one is.

Assuming that the issue of the role (or non-role) of philosophy in science, and in physics in particular, is settled (could you try to convince metacristi of this? I can't do anything about it because he/she still refused to illustrate his/her esoteric prose with specific, concrete examples that I requested), then let me be clear that I have no issues with discussing physics "philosophically" to one's content. Maybe that's a good thing, I don't know (is this better than discussing physics with physicists?) However, one should not fool oneself into thinking that one has had a true picture of the actual content. Analogy, metaphors, sybolism, etc. cannot convey what physicis is. Only when people consciously realize this, then they won't be so quick to build and extrapolate what they think they understand.

Zz.
 
  • #111
metacristi said:
The reality is that the history of science,what happens now at the frontiers of science and even logic itself have shown that popperian falsificationism is at least not satisfactory.
Back this up with solid evidence, please.
metacristi said:
... the revised version of falsificationism,which require the unity of the theories (in the Ayer's sense,but without making any reference to weak 'verification' or meaning)...
Concrete examples of what you are taslking about, thank you.
metacristi said:
we still have the problem of key unobservables in very successful otherwise scientific theories.
Solid evidence, please.

metacristi said:
Even if we could 'verify' them somehow indirectly in a crucial experiment (of the type of that of Rutherford which finally convinced even physicists to accept the existence of atoms)
What are you talking about?
metacristi said:
we still have the problem of theory ladeness.
What does this mean?

metacristi said:
Logically it is still possible that some very fruitful otherwise theoretical concepts (such 'entities' are not testable in isolation) do not exist in reality.
Please come up with examples.

metacristi said:
Thus is conceivable,as a possibility,that further developments would require to renounce at them altoghether in future theory making (not only at some minor attributes attached to them)!
Your problem being?

metacristi said:
This 'mere' possibility (toghether with the possibility of Quinean underdetermination) and the Duhemian underdetermination (which is a fact in spite of some here failing to understand it's importance) is more than enough to not be able to talk of a clear demarcation between science and metaphysics.
This does not follow from what you have said.

metacristi said:
Neither are we allowed to grant to a scientific method based on fallibilism and falsificationism (even methods going well beyond the mere popperian falsificationism) a perpetual epistemological privilege.
Who are you to say this?

metacristi said:
Moreover if strong Quinean underdetermination (irrespective by data)
Concrete examples of what you mean.

metacristi said:
were proved to be more than a mere possibility then we would not be even entitled to talk of epistemological privilege of science (based on fallibilism and intersubjectivity)...
If this "follows" "underdetermination" (whatever that is), is simply false.

I could go on and on..
 
  • #112
marlon said:
I am just wondering why you guys are always referring to links and articles for clarification. Why can't you just post some clear explainatory answers to our questions whithout us having to read articles. The real scientists here do not make reference to some article in order to make a point in this thread. I do not bore you with articles on QFT or GTR in order to make my point. Please, don't hide behind someone else by quoting some article or some other socalled philosopher. The intention of this thread was to discuss personal opinions on philosophy and clear out the most common misconceptions of philosophy...YOU NEED TO EXPLAIN TO US, not the other way around...
just my opinion though...

regards
marlon

This is silly. This discussion called for further clarification. He has told you that english is not his primary language and was therefore pointing you to a site where the same explanation can be found in much better english. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Also, unfortunately, some people don't know near as much as they think they do. I refer people to outside links all the time so that they can get at least an understanding of the concepts I'm using. People are a bit more open minded and can come to trust an outside source before they can some guy named "Fliption" on the internet. But until they actually read the links, the discussion in this forum becomes exactly what this one is...a useless exchange of personal perspectives with no intention or possibility of understanding the other perspectives.
 
  • #113
ZapperZ said:
What I do have a problem with is people who do not know any better foolishly presuming that the superficial knowledge that they have learned about physics (or on anything for that matter) accurately reflects the body of knowledge physics and the practice of physics. Just go ahead and skim through your Philosophy section and tell me that this does not happen. And I'm not just referring to quackeries either, which occurs everywhere no matter how vigilant one is.

I've seen this in the physics forum as well. Tis the nature of humanity to speak in ignorance. You should probably get used to it.
 
  • #114
arildno said:
Back this up with solid evidence, please.

Concrete examples of what you are taslking about, thank you.

Solid evidence, please.


What are you talking about?

What does this mean?


Please come up with examples.


Your problem being?


This does not follow from what you have said.


Who are you to say this?


Concrete examples of what you mean.


If this "follows" "underdetermination" (whatever that is), is simply false.

I could go on and on..

No.It only follows that you (and many others) do not have even the slightest idea of the problems raised by the philosophy of science.What to explain,my goal is not to teach here.Because I should teach you basically everything...No offense a basic course in (modern) philosophy of science is urgently needed by many so called 'serious scientists' here.You'll see plenty of examples there,though,from a purely logical point of view,Duhem's thesis and others,do not need them as justification.

Try this,as a good introduction in philosophy (of science included):

http://www.eblaforum.org/main/viewforum.php?f=13

As regarding the value of philosophy,as an introduction only,I find Russell's account very good (with the observation that some of the views advocated there are no more 'en vogue';for example,relevant for the topic here,being the inductionist approach of Russell-upon him induction is [rather] 'apriori' and needs no justification,[edit to add][he talks however of a weak,probabilistic,justification;unfortunately,even now,neither the objective interpretation of probabilities nor bayesianism has managed to offer a sound argument in favor of a general inductive method][/edit to add]):

http://www.popular-science.net/books/russell/chapter15.html

(but try reading all book)

Indeed the first role of philosophy is to 'rummage' among everything we think we know in order to show which of our 'certitudes' and prejudices must be put first under doubt before hoping to affirm something more precise...

There is no science without philosophy,we should always be able to think way beyond the mere popperian methodology,especially because we already know it is very limited...Moreover philosophy has a great importance even when we 'work' inside the popperian account;indeed,as even Popper do recognize,metaphysical reasearch programmes do have a great impact over science,what seems now metaphysical (in the popperian heuristic) could be,potentially,the science of tomorrow.I would have liked if science had been the unshakable monolith some think it is even now,unfortunately it is not the case...A position entirely justified on rational grounds (it needs some basic grasp of logic and philosophy,of course,to really understand).
 
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  • #115
Since you obviously don't know a thing about PHYSICS, you are no authority upon whether the practices of physicists are false or not. (Since you are ignorant of what they are actually doing)

You can sit in a seminar-room all day phantasizing about what physicists do; your activity is still worthless and irrelevant to knowledgeable individuals.
Good bye.
 
  • #116
arildno said:
Since you obviously don't know a thing about PHYSICS, you are no authority upon whether the practices of physicists are false or not. (Since you are ignorant of what they are actually doing)

You can sit in a seminar-room all day phantasizing about what physicists do; your activity is still worthless and irrelevant to knowledgeable individuals.
Good bye.

Thanks for your proclamation,but of course,how all rational people do realize,this does not really count as a justification.Incidentally what justification have you,for example,when you say that 'you do not know anything about physics'?
 
  • #117
By the fact that you don't bolster up your statements with solid, concrete examples from physics.
 
  • #118
Fliption said:
I've seen this in the physics forum as well. Tis the nature of humanity to speak in ignorance. You should probably get used to it.

Well, yes, I have gotten used to it (I have to, having been on the 'net this long), but I don't have to tolerate such mediocrity, and neither should anyone else. The fact that you don't and shouldn't tolerate when someone, be it a self-proclaimed scientist, or some Joe Schmoe, make incorrect characterization of philosophy, neither should I when someone makes an incorrect characterization of physics and the practice of physics. Here, we have people telling me what I AM doing, and believing in THAT rather than what I tell them what I am actually doing. You will understand if I find that rather incredible.

I have put out my challenge several days ago, and NO ONE took up on the offer. I asked for anyone to specifically point to me, in the case of the develoment (and still developing) of the discovery of high-Tc superconductors, where EXACTLY was and is the role of philosophy and philosphy of science in particular? This is an appropriate case study because (i) it is still on-going (ii) practically ALL of the major characters involved are still alive and we can ASK them if such-and-such are true, rather than having to deal with "dead philosophers" and "dead scientists", and (iii) most importantly, at least for, me, it is still fresh in the minds of many people. This is not Copernicus battling the church with fuzzy historical accounts and news coming down after several translations. This is DIRECT, VERIFIABLE, and clear accounts.

... so I'm still waiting.

Zz.

P.S. I would like to clearly state that this challenge isn't directed at hypnagogue, because we both have the same understanding that philosophy plays no major role in the development of physics.
 
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  • #119
ZapperZ said:
... so I'm still waiting.

Zz.
And so am I..
(I don't know if we're going to get any solid facts out of these people, though)
 
  • #120
Just one question. Why is a theory ever discarded? It is always possible to resurrect any theory with ad hoc exceptions.

So in the end physicists are forced to use criteria like "simplicity" and "elegance". But they generally have no definition for this except gut feeling and majority opinion.

Regarding falsification, here are many concrete examples that it is not how science works:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/gardner_popper.html
 

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