The Ultimates In Funk

  • Thread starter Thread starter Hornbein
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Music
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the classification and appreciation of funk music, including its relationship with jazz and soul. Participants share their favorite tracks, artists, and personal experiences related to funk, while exploring the nuances of genre definitions and musical elements.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express admiration for specific musicians and their contributions to funk, such as Catfish Collins and Bootsy Collins.
  • There are differing opinions on how to classify certain tracks, with multiple participants suggesting "jazz funk" while others mention "soul" and "funk" as overlapping genres.
  • One participant discusses the blurred lines between funk and soul, emphasizing the rhythmic nature of funk vocals compared to the melodic flow of soul vocals.
  • Several participants highlight the importance of genre classification in music distribution, noting how artists can become permanently associated with a particular genre regardless of their musical evolution.
  • There is a discussion about drumming techniques, particularly traditional grip versus matched grip, with insights shared about the potential and limitations of each style.
  • Some participants mention their favorite funk songs and artists, including Johnny Guitar Watson and the Ohio Players, while also referencing Frank Zappa's influence and preferences.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on genre classifications, with multiple competing views on how to categorize various tracks and artists. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the definitions and boundaries of funk, jazz, and soul.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the subjective nature of genre classification and the personal experiences shared by participants, which may not align with broader definitions or categorizations in music.

Hornbein
Gold Member
Messages
3,791
Reaction score
3,061
Here's my fave. Back in 1973 I didn't know who was playing the instruments. Later I found out it was Catfish Collins on eguitar and his brother Bootsie on ebass. It never got better than this. The band lasted little over a year. When they were in Zaire the band asked for a raise, didn't get it, and quit. Too bad.



In my opinion this groove with the conga player inspired Miles Davis's Agharta band which had as heavy a groove as anybody. But too hard edged to be funk.

Catfish seems to have given up on a career as a musician while Bootsie went on to fame with Parliament/Funkdelic then as a solo act. He still lives in Cleveland and has so much money he is a contributor to charities. A recording engineer related that Bootsie once asked, "what day is it?" "It's Thursday." "No I mean, what month is it?"

On this one to me the star is drummer Jerome "Bigfoot" Brailey. He was so good on this one he got cowriting credit, a possibly unique honor for a member of a rhythm section.



While camping I once tried to get my fellow campers to sing this song. They looked at me as though I had gone insane.

Then there is Was/Not Was with Walk The Dinosaur. That's Marcus Miller on ebass (not the white guy in the vid). Notice how prominently he was mixed in. Didn't get songwriting credit though.

 
Science news on Phys.org
It's Bootsy, not Bootsie.
 
How would you class this? From 1.31

I would say Jazz funk

 
Also Jazz funk but different!

 
Reply
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Hornbein
Apologies for being a bit one dimensional here but this concert features some great playing and Buddy is my fazz / reference.



This track I think was more "funk" on live at Ronnie Scott's. I will dig out the funk from there.
 
Yes definitely more funk, a little slower and note the middle section. Bass solo with Buddy keeping a grove although the LH is crazy as usual.

 
This is Jazz, rock funk everything. Sax solo at 2.31 is more funk and listen to how long the brass hold those notes!
So this whole set had a strong funk vein within the jazz setting

 
Reply
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Hornbein
Stevie.

 
Reply
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Hornbein
These guys were just superb writers. The same album has "Haitian Divorce," which is one of my favourite songs of all time. Top ten. ISH.


 
  • #10
pinball1970 said:
How would you class this? From 1.31

I would say Jazz funk


I heard this tune fifty years ago on the radio but didn't know who it was. Now here it is again!

I don't worry about genres much. Soul I guess. The line between funk and soul is pretty blurry.
 
Reply
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: pinball1970
  • #11
pinball1970 said:
Also Jazz funk but different!


Funk all right. Didn't know he had it in him. Even has conga.
 
Reply
  • Wow
Likes   Reactions: pinball1970
  • #12
Hornbein said:
I heard this tune fifty years ago on the radio but didn't know who it was. Now here it is again!

I don't worry about genres much. Soul I guess. The line between funk and soul is pretty blurry.
Genre is what the thread is about isn't it?
 
  • #13
Hornbein said:
Funk all right. Didn't know he had it in him.
What?
I am not falling out with you the last 8 hours of 2024! Listen to "The word," then tell me any drummer could play it.
Tell me that is not funk!
 
  • #14
pinball1970 said:
Yes definitely more funk, a little slower and note the middle section. Bass solo with Buddy keeping a grove although the LH is crazy as usual.


The drumming during the bass solo is really good.
 
Reply
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: pinball1970
  • #15
pinball1970 said:
What?
I am not falling out with you the last 8 hours of 2024! Listen to "The word," then tell me any drummer could play it.
Tell me that is not funk!
Huh? I didn't know he could do it. I ain't challenging nobody here.
 
  • #16
Hornbein said:
Huh? I didn't know he could do it. I ain't challenging nobody here.
Dude, it's Buddy Rich, and drumming. What he could not do was not humanly possible.
 
  • #17
pinball1970 said:
Genre is what the thread is about isn't it?
Not really. I have a policy to not engage in debates about the definitions of words that have no agreed upon definition. There is no end to that. The only reason I offered my opinion that this was soul was that you specifically asked. I thought it would be rude not to respond.

The reason I say it's soul is that soul vocals are melodic and flowing while funk vocals are rhythmic. BUT I'm anomalous in basing my opinions on how the music sounds. That's not how it works. What really matters is what bin the store selling recordings puts it in. Once you get in a bin you stay in that bin no matter what you may do musically. The Crusaders started out as the Jazz Crusaders so they're always going to be in the jazz bin. Keith Jarrett started out in the jazz bin so there he stays even though IMO records like Solo Concerts: Bremen/Lausanne have nothing to do with jazz in spite of having won Jazz Album of the Year. If that were his first recording and he had come out of a classical conservatory then no one would call it jazz, but once you're jazz you're jazz forever. Miles Davis' Live/Evil is pretty much a cover of Jimi Hendrix's Band of Gypsies but nevertheless it is in the jazz bin. John Coltrane's Om is just weird. Paul McCartney has a big music hall influence nevertheless Martha My Dear is rock. "Gatemouth" Brown is really good at jazz but will always be blues. And so on.

Then once streaming services came into vogue the genre thing metastasized. Shoegazing. Indie. Some people will listen to nothing but Scandinavian death metal. Whatever. I don't care. Either I like it or I don't.
 
Last edited:
Reply
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: pinball1970
  • #18
Well in this thread I learned something about drums. I always wondered about trad grip. In 1974 I went to a Tony Williams clinic when Billy Cobham and Lenny White were AFAIK making matched grip big. Tony said trad grip had more potential. That was it. That didn't really tell me anything. Now I know what the deal is.
 
  • #19
Hornbein said:
Well in this thread I learned something about drums. I always wondered about trad grip. In 1974 I went to a Tony Williams clinic when Billy Cobham and Lenny White were AFAIK making matched grip big. Tony said trad grip had more potential. That was it. That didn't really tell me anything. Now I know what the deal is.
You can play faster with less effort, one handed and flick to the BD tom using your wrist rather than lifting the stick.

One thing lacking, power. Buddy had it but few others. Playing and improving for 67 years helps.
Also being the most talented human to ever pick up a pair of drum sticks helps as well.
 
  • #20


They must have made a fortune off of their Celebration being played at sports event.
 
  • #21
One of my favourite artists in funk, and blues, and jazz, Johnny Guitar Watson


Got a feeling

Brass Construction

Brass Construction - something more upbeat
 
Reply
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Hornbein
  • #22
gs56cb said:
One of my favourite artists in funk, and blues, and jazz, Johnny Guitar Watson


Got a feeling

Brass Construction

Brass Construction - something more upbeat
Did you know that this was Frank Zappa's favorite guitar solo?

 
  • #23
Hornbein said:
Did you know that this was Frank Zappa's favorite guitar solo?


he produced most of Frank Zappa's catalogue. I read stories.
 
  • #24
nope, never went to a live show, tried to play guitar though, if that's what the song is referring to
 
  • #25
gs56cb said:
nope, never went to a live show, tried to play guitar though, if that's what the song is referring to
I've actually had that experience I was going to go to this rock concert, then I realized it wouldn't start at 8 pm, but at 1 am, no buses or trains running, just new frontiers
 
  • #26
Here's another one Frank liked.

 
  • #28
Ohio Players deserve a mention.
 
  • #29
Hmm whats the most popular funk song?

Zapp: More Bounce To the Ounce?
 
  • #30
MidgetDwarf said:
Hmm whats the most popular funk song?

Zapp: More Bounce To the Ounce?
That's pretty good. But I never could get behind drum machines or loops.