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The universe from the point of vew of a photon ?

  1. Dec 8, 2012 #1
    How would the universe apear from the point of vew of a phonton ?

    How big is the universe From the view point of a photon?
    How long dos it take to travel any where in the universe from a photon's point of view ?
    From the view point of the photon, is it the universe ?


    Any one got any thou's.. from Quantum Physics ?

    Lachlan
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Dec 8, 2012 #2
    Well, nobody knows. What is time to a photon? It is not even clear that there is such a thing as a photon traveling through space, so it might be better to ask "what is time to an electromagnetic field?" in which case there is no easy answer.

    As for you question one may make the dubious assumption that time does not pass for a photon. In such a case a photon can't be aware of anything, since awareness involves change and change requires time, insofar as we know. But I think "we don't know" is the better answer.

    If you want to do some serious work then "Reflections on Relativity" by Kevin S. Brown is a very good investigation of this and other questions.
     
  4. Dec 8, 2012 #3
    I've heard that if you were a photon you wouldn't experience time. You will arrive at your destination instantaneously while the bystanders watching you travel can still see you moving at a finite speed. Relativity
     
  5. Dec 8, 2012 #4
    Is this a poem, Lachlan? The universe would appear as nothing from the point of view from a photon because a photon experiences no time. The universe would appear infinite to a photon because a photon would have no sense of distance since d=rate*time, and the photon experiences no time.

    Again, "long" = time, and we got no time, so the answer is zero time.

    I suppose it is...The photon, the universe's most self-centered particle.
     
  6. Dec 9, 2012 #5

    mfb

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    In relativity, there is no "view point of a photon".
    To get this, you would need a different theory, and ask about predictions of this different theory.
     
  7. Dec 9, 2012 #6

    “mfb
    Re: The universe from the point of view of a photon ?
    In relativity, there is no "view point of a photon".
    To get this, you would need a different theory, and ask about predictions of this different theory.


    Correct, points of view, need memory and comparing logic, and a system to act on the results of comparisons photon's have none of those things. Of course we have such systems, as a result Evolution/natural selection, giving us predictive modelling system for the world. In fact we have
    both a reactive system, and predictive modelling system(but I will wright more about this latter). But remember (excuse the pun) memory systems are abstractions, I.E. a picture of the Grand Canyon is not the the Grand Canyon, and memory systems don't have some magic link to the so called passed. And yes we need a new theory.

    “DiracPool:
    Is this a poem, Lachlan? The universe would appear as nothing from the point of view from a photon because a photon experiences no time. The universe would appear infinite to a photon because a photon would have no sense of distance since d=rate*time, and the photon experiences no time.
    How long dos it take to travel any where in the universe from a photon's point of view ?
    Again, "long" = time, and we got no time, so the answer is zero time.
    From the view point of the photon, is it the universe ?
    I suppose it is...The photon, the universe's most self-centered particle.

    No not a poem, but given my English skill's or the lack there of, it looks that way ;)
    Not sure I would use the term self-centred, given that is a human concept, but given
    the QM treat's things as infinite small. Where as size/distance has no meaning for photon.
    It is the the universe in one respect.

    “lundyjb
    I've heard that if you were a photon you wouldn't experience time. You will arrive at your destination instantaneously while the bystanders watching you travel can still see you moving at a finite speed. Relativity

    Hume I don't know how you the bystander would see any thing, that implies there is a way of seeing
    a particle/photon with out any interactions with it, No I think, we know nothing about the photon until
    it interacts with a detector(s), as far as it's considered it is the universe, and this view is shown by the
    fact it interface's with it's self. In the double slip experiments and appears to us to travel all path's to the detector.

    “ImaLooser
    Well, nobody knows. What is time to a photon? It is not even clear that there is such a thing as a photon traveling through space, so it might be better to ask "what is time to an electromagnetic field?" in which case there is no easy answer.”

    “ImaLooser
    It is not even clear that there is such a thing as a photon traveling through space,

    Yes that's my point, there is no space/time from for a photon, as dubious assumption as that may sound.
    If so can that explain none locally, infinitely fast connection, humm, could the universe's work with out
    nonlocality ? What problems dos none nonlocality solve, sorry hyper spacing there. ;)

    As for you question one may make the dubious assumption that time does not pass for a photon. In such a case a photon can't be aware of anything, since awareness involves change and change requires time, insofar as we know. But I think "we don't know" is the better answer.

    “ImaLooser
    As for you question one may make the dubious assumption that time does not pass for a photon
    traveling through space.


    Are the time nightmare, like infinitely small particle's from QM, or 3, ...9 dimensions space from string theory or how many other you wont to dream up, this is more trap of our passed conditioning.

    So like the 5 blind man trying to figure out what the elephant looks like, lets take a Evolution/natural selection insight as to why natural selection would crate such such a powerful (illusion ?) of time when there is none ?
    When life(coping machine's) got going, they were simple things, no way to move etc. Once movement developed they could keep position at a optimum location to make more copy's
    of them self, they could factor in temp in one simple form, then say light, PH, etc.]
    For more complex ways to keep it in a optimum location, notice that there is no time or space involved.. (wait for it keep a open mind) as far as the copying machine was concerned it only reacted to some change in the environment. There was no need for pasts or furniture, no need for space/time, so lets call this a “reactive system” while reactive system's are very simple to build/design... for small number of inputs they also can quite complex for large number.
    IE human made system's, this would include most of current computer/controller system's in cars/toy's/trains/plains/phone's etc. Reactive systems while demanding little in resource's to do the computation, also have big limitation, they can't predictions about the environment which they resided. Where as a predictive system can.
    For example: our copying machine is in a nice pool in the Bahamas during winter making lots of copy's of if self ;) But in summer it's going to dry up, and all copy machines will become too damaged to make any more copy's of them self s. Where as our prediction system has a simple model(simple ?) of the environment, which predicts the pool will dry up in coming summer, and move to a location which the pool dos not dry up (nice rock pool in Australia for example). In terms of complexity prediction system's are mind numbing to design and get right, just look at human being for example. How much resource's it's take's, and the high fail rate's of the predictive system, our brains. Just walk down stair's which have diffident hight/spaced steps.. blind folded. And you have to drop out of he prediction system to the reactive systems, is a good example. Look at our attempts to make a machine which walks like us, the problem's can't be solved in a “reactive system”

    The key things you need for a predictive system , are to crate model of space, of time, and your place in that model, simple predictive system's only can change they position in that model, complex system can change the environment to suite them self. IE instead of movie south/north during summer, move to a cave, build a house, store water, build dam etc. Notice the predictive system's has no way of knowing
    if the pool will dry up, it could rain all summer, sun get dimer etc. We all make predictions
    and how many are correct ? but we add a learning system, and bang you have us, A copying machine
    which makes a internal model of the world.. which make time, when there is none?
    Still not convinced ? We grow old, people die, etc.. you say it take's time to get some where, we have
    clocks, and the the arrow of time, we have memory of the past, but do we ?, what is memory... for a computer its electrical charges in a dram memory chip, or magnetic domain's on hard disk, for us it neurons connection's inside a massively feed back system, which always on on edge of endless oscillation
    (which we call a Seizures or less case's it's fixation's) is that the past ? Surely not! So I summit time illusion of our predictive modelling system and we try to applier to what makes the universe tick, we end up with one hell of a mess ! As QED normaliser nightmare shows and the attempts to join General relativity and QM , S theory proves.

    It a-pear's we are trapped in asking, “what happened when we reach the edge of the earth ?”
    of cores we know that this is a none question, as there is no edge, never a less we are stuck in the same mind set made from a our passed victory's and successor's and education.

    “ImaLooser
    If you want to do some serious work then "Reflections on Relativity" by Kevin S. Brown is a very good investigation of this and other questions.

    I will check it out, "Reflections on Relativity" by Kevin S. Brown, sounds interesting

    Lachlan
     
  8. Dec 10, 2012 #7

    mfb

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    This is not about concepts of models and reality. It is a statement of the theory itself: There is no system with the properties you want to have.

    If you have a specific one in mind, post it (note that it has to be seriously discussed in the scientific community, personal theories and similar are not allowed here). Otherwise, this is pointless.
     
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