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The view from a ring singularity?

  1. Feb 2, 2006 #1
    I have been doing some thinking about the collapse process inside a rotating black hole. (I think that the probability of creating a non rotating black hole with its point singularity and awkward infinities is so unlikely as to be not worth bothering about).

    Note this analysis requires no new physics whatsoever. Just standard relativity quantum theory and gravity.

    This is how I visualise it. Initially conditions will not be too far different from those found and analysed in our universe particularly if the hole is a massive one.

    There will be an initial ellipsoidal collapse and adiabatic heating which will become toroidal as "viscosity" drags the still center out and gives it angular momentum. As the collapse to a ring continues residual angular momenum about the ring will cause it to rotate like a smoke ring and again the residual still centre of the torus will be evacuated. so the final stucture is a rotating toroidal membrane which allows angular momentum in all dimensions to be accommadated

    The particles and photons that formed the hole will settle down into a massive toroidal structure that rotates at speeds approaching the speed of light (ie many times the rest mass of any particles) but the individual particles will cool down relative to each other and become relatively quiet in spiral orbits around the centre where a massive gravity gradient holds the whole thing together. This spiral will also stabilise itself and the whole structure will be a bit like a smoke ring with the particles very close together but with very similar directions and velocities.

    What would the universe look like to a particle in this ring singularity inside a rotating black hole during this settling down process?

    Let us assume that the hole is quiet and isolated from anything else so there is no new material coming in. so there is nothing to see outside the singularity

    My feeling is that when one looks from an individual particle to its near companions that taking in the spacetime dilations caused by the extreme velocity and gravity gradients the immediate surroundings would look very much like normal flat three dimensional empty space with the possibility of evolutional cooling clustering and structuring coming as a time dimension. Also that the gradual cooling of the material would result in an increase in velocity and gravitational gradient that will make the volume of space appear to expand with time.

    This is because an object in a freefall orbit is totally unaware of any motion due to the orbit and, in the absence of any distant fixed points, can only be aware of its relative movements with respect to its neighbours. also as the initially random motions of the particles settle down the orbital energy and gravitational gradients will steadily increase.

    If this IS so, it could unleash the wildest model of our universe that you could ever imagine. That is, that the whole of space itself could be a "fiction" created by the kinetic and gravitational energy of the black hole and that in one dimension everything IS very close together!

    This could also provide simple classical explanations of quantum wierdness that says all particles exist in all space at all times because even for a large rotating black hole this central ring singularity would be very small indeed.

    The high orbital energy would also explain the behaviour of the quantum mechanical vaccum when interactios allow this to be accessed

    One final note if the black hole was slowly evaporating this wouuld cause a slow loss of energy from the singularity which i think would cause the perception of space to increase in size a bit more than one might expect!

    One interesting feature of this hypothesis is that it is like Fred Hoyle's continuous creation hypothesis quite possible to refute but at the same time provides a totally consitent and continuous structure for a multiverse.

    On the largest scale our universe would therefore be toroidal with the possibility of having recursion (seeing the back of your own head in the distance) and some of the latest results of cosmic microwave background correlations suggest that this may not be an unreasonable idea.

    I have tried to find if anone else has analysed this situation and also how orbits behave in extreme relatavistic conditiond bit so far have failed so I thought it might be worth while putting this up for comment here.
  2. jcsd
  3. Feb 3, 2006 #2
    I'd just like to add a minor supplementary to this.

    Is there any reason to believe that it is ever possible to create a non rotating black hole which contains the nasty mathematical singularity that everyone is worrying about.

    Gravity is an important force in our universe but an even more important "force" is angular momentum because it is this that ensures our universe exists for a long time bcause if it were not for angular momentum atoms. stars and everything would collapse on a timescale associated with the relavant electrical or gravitational forces.

    Consider a particle approaching a mathematical point gravitational singularity (if such a thing ever existed which I very much doubt) it would almost certainly posess some residual angular momentum with respect to this singularity and would attempt to orbit about it gradually increasing speed and gaining mass but the angular momentum must be conserved and the closer it gets to the singularity the faster it goes and the more energy it has without limit because the angular momentum must always be conserved and the smaller the distance from the singularity the more energy there must be to maintain the orbit. Ths is clearly a silly situation and the mathematical singularity must become a rotating black hole (see view from a rotating black hole).

    This then turns something mathematical with a nasty infinity in it into something physical that starts to have some contact with reality
  4. Feb 4, 2006 #3
    I am not sure that the silence in response to this question is lack of interest or frantic searching for background information from others that may help.

    If it is the first, so be it, but if it is the second I have been searching for some time and have failed to find any prior art in this precise area. All the models just rush off to the final limit of a ring singularity without thinking about what happens on the way there.

    In relation again to this I have been looking for and singularly failing to find anything about orbit theory in extreme relatavistic conditions when the acceleration of the body on freefall produces significant increases in mass.
    Does the orbit stay elliptical or change into a spiral (neglecting energy loss due to gravitiational wave radiation initially)?
    Does the relatavistic mass increase add to the gravitational forces and become part of the angular momentum that must be conserved?

    Are there any references to the gravitational fields around a toroidal structure in particular a toroidal shell maintained by angular momentum?

    Failing any creative contributions to the questions I am also interested to know what people think on a scale of 1 to 10 whether this is :-

    1 a totally crazy idea not worthy of consideration


    10 something very significant that has been missed by the scientific community today and well worthy of serious investigation.
  5. Feb 7, 2006 #4
    Soul Surfer . It obviously can't be rubbish overwise i presume it would have been deleted by now, give it a bit longer and maybe someone with the required knowlege or interest will reply :smile:
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2006
  6. Feb 19, 2006 #5
    I have just managed to find out some interesting things about relatavistic orbits from another section of this forum and seen some very interesting simulations of objects with angular momentum approaching a black hole. the important fact is that as a particle accelerates to conserve its angular momentum as it approaches the hole the increased difficulty of accelerating the particle because of what is sometimes called the relatavistic mass increase creates a potential valley just outside the black hole. This helps to illustrate what will happen inside the hole. The important feature is that there wil be a significant amount of space and time for things to happen and not the intractable mathematical point singularity that is often described as the final outcome of gravitational collapse
  7. Mar 6, 2006 #6
    I am very surprised that one of the moderators has not come up to debunk this idea. I have been searching and found some work on studies of what might go on inside black holes but haven't found anything really useful yet
  8. Mar 6, 2006 #7
    Also I note that the CMB references that I could not remember have been posted under the rotating anisotropic universe heading
  9. Mar 6, 2006 #8
    why is no one replying? this sounds interesting, although i know very little about whatever this is about...
  10. Mar 8, 2006 #9


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    It's been talked about some in other threads. Ring singularities do arise in the Kerr solution, but the current best guess seems to be that the they don't happen in quite this way in realistic collapse.
  11. Mar 12, 2006 #10
    Thanks for the information Pervect can you give me the references where I can find discussuions on the gravitational collapse process that occurs inside a rotating black hole. If necessary use a personal message if you do not wish to publicise rival chat pages on this one (I know some sites are sensitive about things like this but I don't see why)

    Let me come clean on my thinking. I feel strongly (like Fred Hoyle) that the multiverse (i.e. everything that there is including all the bits that we can never see) must exist over an indefinite time and space. So our expanding and fading universe must be compensated for by a collapsing and recycling process.

    Also the laws of physics are balanced in such a fine way to suggest that they are quite likely to have been arrived at by an evolutionary feedback process over a vast time scale (see also stuff by lee smolin on this where he suggests that the driving factor may be to maximise the number of black holes (new universes) that are created. This is similar to the way that life stabilises and controlls the conditions on earth to some extent ref James lovelock).

    We have within our own universe examples of recycled and disconnected structures in the form of black holes so this is a good starting point. However the theorists have all rushed to the final state of the hole (a bit like saying our universe is uninteresting because it ends in the heat death of a quiet vaccuum with nothing in it) and failed to analyse seriously the processes on the way so I am trying to encourage experts with better mathematical skills than myself to look at this topic seriosly because they might find something much more interesting without having to solve all the theories of everything. in fact the may get some much better hints on how to find a theory of everything.
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