Things you consider academic dishonesty , but people do all the time?

[JaredJames]

It honestly sounds like you're in denial about your own inability (I saw you claim you're a hands-on guy). It's the inability of a person that creates the anxiety, not the anxiety that creates the inability. Someone confident in their ability has no reason to worry.

Well unfortunately, I'd love to say it was denial but I have the grades (and placement review) to support it.

You're missing out a number of key issues. Ability doesn't have to be the cause of getting worked up in exams. For myself I find the time gets to me. My working style is quite relaxed and I like to take my time and get on with it, perhaps with a bit of music for concentration. Stick me in a room with nothing but a calculator and say "you have three hours to do this" and suddenly I get a bit panicked.

Their is no issue with a test weeding out the anxious.

According to you, I should be "weeded out" because I can't perform in a completely unrealistic scenario - I'm unaware of many jobs that require you be put in a room in silence and told to answer a bunch of questions using nothing more than your own memory, with the onus of any talking or suspicious movements (including toilet breaks) being considered potentially grounds for failure.

 

[tedbradly]

Well unfortunately, I'd love to say it was denial but I have the grades (and placement review) to support it.

You're missing out a number of key issues. Ability doesn't have to be the cause of getting worked up in exams. For myself I find the time gets to me. My working style is quite relaxed and I like to take my time and get on with it. Stick me in a room with nothing but a calculator and say "you have three hours to do this" and suddenly I get a bit panicked.

How can you have the grades to prove it if you have the test anxiety? It sounds like, then, you either cheated by getting disability benefits or you are not actually debilitatingly anxious during tests.

And yeah, I agree that tests should have much more time than needed scheduled, and you should almost always have cheat-sheets allowed. There is no reason to test memory of every equation and detail. No teacher I've had has not done those two things, though (unless they were highly fundamental with memorization limited in quantity such as in a basic math course).

 

[maverick_starstrider]

Whoa. This is off topic, but note: Anger management issues here that could seriously get you into trouble. Maybe in this case you had a point, but I HIGHLY suggest trying to keep yourself in control. I'm not sure about all schools' policies (of course), but depending on the professor's reporting to department head, etc., this could get you kicked out (of the class or institution), possibly put on probation, have a restraining order put on you, etc.

Now it's equally unprofessional if the professor was yelling in the discussion too (and if there was an error on the test he/she should have probably made some form of amends -- say a curve), but I'm not sure who the department/institution would support. I'm betting probably the professor/employee, rather than the student/consumer.

When I was in graduate school, a graduate student apparently got in a yelling match with his/her research advisor (and it may have even escalated to blows, but don't hold me to that... I wasn't present and I don't remember the many associated rumors, especially as I wasn't much interested). I do remember the graduate student left the program (whether voluntarily or via some sanctions, I'm not sure).

Well yelling may have been a little hyperbolic. The guy got passed over for tenure the next month and left, he's yet to surface at another university. He wasn't exactly the departments golden boy.

 

[JaredJames]

How can you have the grades to prove it if you have the test anxiety? It sounds like, then, you either cheated by getting disability benefits or you are not actually debilitatingly anxious during tests.

By "grades to prove it" I mean I have have grades from all practical subjects and the 'real world' stuff that are fantastic, but the pure written exams are nowhere near as good.

In other words, when judged on real world application I receive high reviews (I have several). But if based only on written examination I am not so good (I have a fair few of these too).

I have no "disability benefits".

And yeah, I agree that tests should have much more time than needed scheduled, and you should almost always have cheat-sheets allowed. There is no reason to test memory of every equation and detail. No teacher I've had has not done those two things, though.

I have only one teacher who believes this, personally I agree with it. The ability to search through and utilise materials to gain the correct answer, IMO is far more important than being able to memorise something for a test that you won't remember in a few months.
As per my teacher, "exams aren't how the real world functions, they aren't how I am expected to function, so why should I make you do so?".

 

[tedbradly]

By "grades to prove it" I mean I have have grades from all practical subjects and the 'real world' stuff that are fantastic, but the pure written exams are nowhere near as good.

In other words, when judged on real world application I receive high reviews (I have several). But if based only on written examination I am not so good (I have a fair few of these too).

I have no "disability benefits".

You told me earlier that schools don't have any real-world projects. So which is it -- they don't or they do and you score well in them.

If it is the former, you're lying about your 'grades to prove it' and if the latter then you're lying about overall performance from a school being a bad estimator of knowledge due to the test-taking anxiety.

And from a while ago (when you said I said you should be weeded out): No, obviously not! If you have made it, then you should not have been weeded out. The proof is in the pudding for this one unless you're a cheater.

 

[micromass]

Their is no issue with a test weeding out the anxious.

Tests should weed out those that don't know the material or the ones who will not perform well later. Being anxious should have nothing to do with that.

 

[maverick_starstrider]

It honestly sounds like you're in denial about your own inability (I saw you claim you're a hands-on guy). It's the inability of a person that creates the anxiety, not the anxiety that creates the inability. Someone confident in their ability has no reason to worry.

This entire spectrum of educational issues spawns from the world pushing their unable children toward mentally tougher, socially applauded jobs, because they cannot perceive their child to be average or even below average.
Are you just ignoring everything I said? I just quoted my words, which included viewing the ratings of service from users. That includes (almost exclusively) customer service.

Sorry to shatter your little Randian dream but in reality arrogance and ability aren't particularly correlated. We all know that smart guy who was just too damn lazy or self-confident to put in the necessary amount of effort and failed out. Or, the type A over-achiever who obsesses anxiously over EVERYTHING despite (or resulting in) a near flawless average. Even if you know the material at a 90% average level you can still get yourself in mental quicksand if you hit a string of questions on a test that you don't know (even if they constitute only 10% of the mark), this than throws off your confidence and ability to focus for the rest of the test. Anxiety most definitely has an effect on performance. My problem is with the extremely vague notion of elevating the anxiety of a chosen few to the level of abnormal medical condition and singling them out for special treatment.

Cocky and competent are NOT the same things.

To be honest dude, on a forum like this, you'd better have a flawless GPA and be at one of the top 5 physics departments in your country if you expect people to buy the "school and tests are a cinch and if people have difficulty with them then they clearly are just inferior and suck at physics". If you DO have a flawless GPA and are in one of the best departments in your country then I could see where it comes from.

 

[JaredJames]

You told me earlier that schools don't have any real-world projects. So which is it -- they don't or they do and you score well in them. If it is the former, you're lying about your 'grades to prove it' and if they do then you're lying about overall performance from a school being a bad estimator of knowledge due to the test-taking anxiety.

Schools don't have that much real world stuff. My issue earlier was with your use of "many real world projects". There are some, but not enough to offset the exam results. For example, last year I had one 'real world type project' and seven exams.

The majority of my own real world results comes from me going that bit further (for example working hard to get a placement in a company) and trying to get it to prove I'm not as bad as my grades make out.

I'm neither lying about "having the grades to prove it", not am I lying about test anxiety.

 

[tedbradly]

Tests should weed out those that don't know the material or the ones who will not perform well later. Being anxious should have nothing to do with that.

Those with 'test-taking anxiety' appear not to know the material. They cannot work in a quick, accurate manner that would describe a knowledgeable student.

This test-taking anxiety derives from a couple of main, delusional places:

1.) The person did not study enough.
In this situation, the person's anxiety comes from his inability (he knows he will fail), his inability does not come from his anxiety.

2.) The person is not intelligent or has bad memory
In this situation, he doesn't have the brightness or memory to work quickly, and that inability (again) causes the anxiety, not the other way around.

Now, someone suffering from (2) may be good at 'hands-on stuff' because given enough time, dedication, and external resource he may be an exceptional worker. If that's the case, he should pass in his school with an overall performance of average to above-average.

Sorry to shatter your little Randian dream but in reality arrogance and ability aren't particularly correlated. We all know that smart guy who was just too damn lazy or self-confident to put in the necessary amount of effort and failed out. Or, the type A over-achiever who obsesses anxiously over EVERYTHING despite (or resulting in) a near flawless average. Even if you know the material at a 90% average level you can still get yourself in mental quicksand if you hit a string of questions on a test that you don't know (even if they constitute only 10% of the mark), this than throws off your confidence and ability to focus for the rest of the test. Anxiety most definitely has an effect on performance. My problem is with the extremely vague notion of elevating the anxiety of a chosen few to the level of abnormal medical condition and singling them out for special treatment.

Cocky and competent are NOT the same things.

To be honest dude, on a forum like this, you'd better have a flawless GPA and be at one of the top 5 physics departments in your country if you expect people to buy the "school and tests are a cinch and if people have difficulty with them then they clearly are just inferior and suck at physics". If you DO have a flawless GPA and are in one of the best departments in your country then I could see where it comes from.

Looks like you're a combination of (1) and (2). (1) is expressed in you admitting ignorance in 10% of the subject, and (2) is implied in you vilifying the good student who knows 100%. That is, you vilify him, because you are unable to match his skills, not because you choose not to match his skills. In a delusional mind, however, you have always chosen not to match his skills.

 

[Geezer]

Those with 'test-taking anxiety' appear not to know the material. They cannot work in a quick, accurate manner that would describe a knowledgeable student.

This test-taking anxiety derives from a couple of main, delusional places:

1.) The person did not study enough.
In this situation, the person's anxiety comes from his inability (he knows he will fail), his inability does not come from his anxiety.

2.) The person is not intelligent or has bad memory
In this situation, he doesn't have the brightness or memory to work quickly, and that inability (again) causes the anxiety, not the other way around.

Now, someone suffering from (2) may be good at 'hands-on stuff' because given enough time, dedication, and external resource he may be an exceptional worker. If that's the case, he should pass in his school with an overall performance of average to above-average.

I disagree. I'm both dedicated to studying AND smart enough, but that's not enough to keep my anxiety at bay.

 

[micromass]

Those with 'test-taking anxiety' appear not to know the material.

I doubt you know many people with test-taking anxiety then. People with test-taking anxiety might know their material perfectly and still perform lousy.
Anxiety on tests has nothing to do with not knowing the material with these people.

As always, you need to have a "disorder" in order to understand it...

 

[tedbradly]

I doubt you know many people with test-taking anxiety then. People with test-taking anxiety might know their material perfectly and still perform lousy.
Anxiety on tests has nothing to do with not knowing the material with these people.

As always, you need to have a "disorder" in order to understand it...

Ok. If they apparently know the material, they fall into category (2). It's actually their lack of brightness or memory that conceals the material by which the anxiety spawns. The anxiety is not responsible for concealing the material to the anxious.

 

[tedbradly]

I disagree. I'm both dedicated to studying AND smart enough, but that's not enough to keep my anxiety at bay.

I'm not sure I believe you. You'd have to be irrational to have anxiety if you truly have those three attributes.

Don't confuse being a bit anxious with having this apparent 'anxiety test-taking disorder.' As an example, I can feel my heart racing before getting a test, and I wake up 45 minutes before my clock fires on the day of a test, feeling my heart race. I am anxious and excited. However, the anxiety does not influence my abilities to regurgitate information or solve problems. And after I finish the test 45 minutes early, I take a nice sigh, drink from my water, and begin going over each problem once more.

 

[micromass]

Ok. If they apparently know the material, they fall into category (2). It's actually their lack of brightness or memory that conceals the material by which the anxiety spawns. The anxiety is not responsible for concealing the material to the anxious.

No, not at all. Ever heard of black-outs?? People know the material perfectly before the test and after the test, but can't do anything during the tests.

Don't generalize what you think is true for other people. Most people are very, very different from each other. Find some people with test-anxiety and talk to them with an open mind, you'll be surprised!

 

[tedbradly]

No, not at all. Ever heard of black-outs?? People know the material perfectly before the test and after the test, but can't do anything during the tests.

Don't generalize what you think is true for other people. Most people are very, very different from each other. Find some people with test-anxiety and talk to them with an open mind, you'll be surprised!

I've never heard of that. It sounds like a (2) lying about his state of affairs (to you and himself). See, it was his unintelligence that mired his progress on the test, despite him superficially knowing the material -- not some apparent blackout.

 

[micromass]

I've never heard of that. It sounds like a (2) lying about his state of affairs (to you and himself). See, it was his unintelligence that mired his progress on the test, despite him superficially knowing the material -- not some apparent blackout.

Trust me, he knew his material extremely well! The entire class always went to him to ask various questions and he always came up with brilliant answers. He just couldn't do tests... Is that so hard to believe?

 

[tedbradly]

Trust me, he knew his material extremely well! The entire class always went to him to ask various questions and he always came up with brilliant answers. He just couldn't do tests... Is that so hard to believe?

Yes. It sounds like a cocky (2) that fooled everyone into thinking he was not (2).

 

[JaredJames]

tedbradley, I direct you to do some reading and stop claiming something that is known to exist, doesn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_anxiety

Note the causes listed in that article and their effects - exactly as micro described.

Can someone please link to the thread on this that was here not so long ago?

I'd add that your own personal ideas regarding not knowing the material don't mean anything here, unless of course you're going to start backing it up.

 

[ideasrule]

I'm not sure I believe you. You'd have to be irrational to have anxiety if you truly have those three attributes.

You think all human beings are rational? Tell me how feeling sad after a relative's death is rational. Tell me how freaking out over tiny insects is rational. Tell me how being scared of the dark in a modern, 21st century home is rational. We've evolved to survive in the wild, not to be scientific equipment that objectively analyzes the world.

Also, we're specifically talking about an anxiety disorder. By definition, a disorder is not rational or normal; it's a mental illness. Do you also reject the reality of Alzheimer's disease or schizophrenia because victims don't act rationally?

 

[maverick_starstrider]

Yes. It sounds like a cocky (2) that fooled everyone into thinking he was not (2).

Dude, do you actually believe that anxiety DOESN'T EXIST. Like you can't conceive of it. Like if a person is scared of a spider it is because they are literally unprepared for a spider attack and have inferior spider defensive abilities. If these people were sat down and taught some sort of anti-spider martial art they would cease to feel anxiety. Are people scared of heights because they're more aerodynamic? In your mind is fear of heights correlated to your physique's drag coefficient? Is that like actually a thing in your head? People get anxious about tests, they doubt themselves. They come across a question that at first flush they don't know the answer to, their mind then spins off to think about what would happen if they failed this test. Would they get kicked out of school? Their parents would never forgive them. They'd kick them out! That's the only logical consequence of them getting this question wrong! Oh my god, they're going to be homeless and degreeless and destitute and they're going to die alone in a cardboard box! Oh wait, the answer is C. And wham, 20 minutes have gone by.

The fact that you apparently suffer no anxiety suggest to me that you're either not in particularly challenging environment or are Dwight Schrute.

 

[JaredJames]

or are Dwight Schrute.

Wow, I was thinking exactly the same thing!

Chocolate milkshake up my monitor after reading that.

 

[maverick_starstrider]

Wow, I was thinking exactly the same thing!

Chocolate milkshake up my monitor after reading that.

Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.

 

[tedbradly]

tedbradley, I direct you to do some reading and stop claiming something that is known to exist, doesn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_anxiety

Note the causes listed in that article and their effects - exactly as micro described.

Can someone please link to the thread on this that was here not so long ago?

I'd add that your own personal ideas regarding not knowing the material don't mean anything here, unless of course you're going to start backing it up.

I've told you how it manifests, which is misleading to everyone who has it or measures it. Sure, it exists, but it's not a problem.

You think all human beings are rational? Tell me how feeling sad after a relative's death is rational. Tell me how freaking out over tiny insects is rational. Tell me how being scared of the dark in a modern, 21st century home is rational. We've evolved to survive in the wild, not to be scientific equipment that objectively analyzes the world.

Also, we're specifically talking about an anxiety disorder. By definition, a disorder is not rational or normal; it's a mental illness. Do you also reject the reality of Alzheimer's disease or schizophrenia because victims don't act rationally?

People with mental disorders deserve their failing grades. But that is beyond the issue at hand. See, the people allegedly with this 'disorder' create the anxiety after either not knowing the material or not being bright enough to apply what they know. It's not the anxiety that makes them fail. They failed first and reacted to it.

Dude, do you actually believe that anxiety DOESN'T EXIST. Like you can't conceive of it. Like if a person is scared of a spider it is because they are literally unprepared for a spider attack and have inferior spider defensive abilities. If these people were sat down and taught some sort of anti-spider martial art they would cease to feel anxiety. Are people scared of heights because they're more aerodynamic? In your mind is fear of heights correlated to your physique's drag coefficient? Is that like actually a thing in your head? People get anxious about tests, they doubt themselves. They come across a question that at first flush they don't know the answer to, their mind then spins off to think about what would happen if they failed this test. Would they get kicked out of school? Their parents would never forgive them. They'd kick them out! That's the only logical consequence of them getting this question wrong! Oh my god, they're going to be homeless and degreeless and destitute and they're going to die alone in a cardboard box! Oh wait, the answer is C. And wham, 20 minutes have gone by.

The fact that you apparently suffer no anxiety suggest to me that you're either not in particularly challenging environment or are Dwight Schrute.

So it all comes down to the person not knowing the answer (in your example). Like I said, (1) or (2) creates the anxiety -- it's not the anxiety that creates failing. Refer to my previous answer to ideasrule for more information on what I'm saying.

 

[JaredJames]

I've told you how it manifests, which is misleading to everyone who has it or measures it. Sure, it exists, but it's not a problem.

People with mental disorders deserve their failing grades. But that is beyond the issue at hand. See, the people allegedly with this 'disorder' create the anxiety after either not knowing the material or not being bright enough to apply what they know. It's not the anxiety that makes them fail. They failed first and reacted to it.

So it all comes down to the person not knowing the answer (in your example). Like I said, (1) or (2) creates the anxiety -- it's not the anxiety that creates failing. Refer to my previous answer to ideasrule for more information on what I'm saying.

Uh, as per above, your own personal theories and explanations ain't worth squat here. Perhaps you could supply something to support your explanation of why it occurs?

You seem to have pinned down the cause pretty quickly and very certainly without any support for it. Yet people have been studying it since 1950 according to the wiki article and they haven't solved it. How clever are you...

 

[tedbradly]

Uh, as per above, your own personal theories and explanations ain't worth squat here. Perhaps you could supply something to support your explanation of why it occurs?

Just stop being delusional and examine yourself. You suffer from the anxiety. Then, you can attest to my true theory. For evidence, examine maverick_starstrider's anecdote, which details not knowing an answer prior to the feeling the anxiety.

 

[JaredJames]

For evidence, examine maverick_starstrider's anecdote, which details not knowing an answer prior to the feeling the anxiety.

No, the person thought they didn't know the answer, panicked and then realized they did know it. They knew the material and the answer, but panic set in.

 

[tedbradly]

No, the person thought they didn't know the answer, panicked and then realized they did know it. They knew the material and the answer, but panic set in.

They thought they didn't know the answer, because they were unintelligent. Thus, they had (2).

 

[JaredJames]

They thought they didn't know the answer, because they were unintelligent. Thus, they had (2).

Utter non-sense. You are able to proclaim they are unintelligent purely because they panicked on one question.

I would love to see some citations showing that a person not knowing one test answer is considered unintelligent.

 

[tedbradly]

Utter non-sense. You are able to proclaim they are unintelligent purely because they panicked on one question.

True. They could have just been unprepared, meaning they were (1). See, it all comes down to them superficially understanding the material or not understanding it at all, both of which can come from a lack of preparation or intelligence. Then, they panic in response to observing their losses. The panic did not cause the losses.

 

[JaredJames]

True. They could have just been unprepared, meaning they were (1). See, it all comes down to them superficially understanding the material or not understanding it at all, both of which can come from a lack of preparation or intelligence. Then, they panic in response to observing their losses. The panic did not cause the losses.

Or, they were well prepared and knew the materials, but something distracted them enough to put them off and cause panic to set in.

You seem to be under the impression that all humans are the same and react identically to each other under similar circumstances. This is simply not true.

Heck, a hormone imbalance can mean the difference between sitting quietly and accepting being shouted at or bawling your eyes out. Little things.