Tom Brady's Footballs: Enough Thrown to Sense 2 PSI?

[Bystander]

Tom Brady has NOT thrown enough footballs in his career to sense a two psi difference in inflation pressure? Anybody believe that?

 

[Pythagorean]

I, uhhh, don't follow sports so I have no idea what you just said.

 

[Pythagorean]

Oh, of course! Pounds per square inch, ok.

 

[nsaspook]

Nobody touches Tom Brady's balls without his knowledge or consent.

 

[Tobias Funke]

The league takes this stuff seriously. It's not some minor misstep like repeatedly beating or raping people

 

[Astronuc]

Tom Brady has NOT thrown enough footballs in his career to sense a two psi difference in inflation pressure? Anybody believe that?

May be he's always used underinflated balls.

The NFL specifications say they must be inflated to 12½ to 13½ pounds, or about 13 psi.

Two psi under would definitely feel different.

 

[lisab]

Does anyone know if there's a standard they use to measure football pressure? How long does it take for the footballs to condition to constant temperature? Is pigskin really used to make them, and is there a way to determine the rate pigskin leaks air, especially while it's in use? Is there an actual pigskin standard? When the pressure was measured after the game, did they do that to all the balls? Is it routine to do so? My god, am I actually thinking this much about footballs?

 

[dlgoff]

Does anyone know if there's a standard they use to measure football pressure? How long does it take for the footballs to condition to constant temperature? Is pigskin really used to make them, and is there a way to determine the rate pigskin leaks air, especially while it's in use? Is there an actual pigskin standard? When the pressure was measured after the game, did they do that to all the balls? Is it routine to do so? My god, am I actually thinking this much about footballs?

One week ago it would have counted as deep football nerdery. Now, though, the procedure by which officials confirm the air pressure inside game balls ...

How Officials Check Ball Pressure

The video here looks real scientific, NOT.

I'd be using this.

I'd like to know if they even consider this: "How long does it take for the footballs to condition to constant temperature?"

 

[Tobias Funke]

Imagine how much better it is for Brady's joints to use balls that are "two-to-three pounds lighter" than normal!

 

[Bystander]

is there a way to determine the rate pigskin leaks air,

That's the big question that crossed my mind: equipment manager inflates balls, and they're supposedly checked; stored on sideline through game, can moisture freeze in the "valves" and slowly leak down? And, there's no provision for checking?

Officials spotting balls should be noticing something as well, come to think of it. A new ritual to go with the coin toss, the ball check --- why not a random ball selector a la lottery machines? Both teams throw in the balls they've prepared for the game, each play, officials pick a random ball to spot, end of play, that ball goes back in the randomizer.

 

[Dotini]

http://nypost.com/2015/01/22/ex-players-react-bradys-cluelessness-unbelievable/

Ex-players react: Brady‘s cluelessness ‘unbelievable’
By Howie Kussoy

Tom Brady, Brian Dawkins (top right) and Mark Brunell (bottom right) Photo: AP (2); Getty Images

For more than a decade, Tom Brady has established himself as one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time, one of the sport’s most popular and respected players. On Wednesday, Brady may have jeopardized his credibility for good.

Like Patriots coach Bill Belichick, Brady denied having anything to do with footballs being deflated in the AFC Championship Game and denied knowing it had occurred until the next day, but to the quarterback’s former peers, the NFL’s golden boy lost some of the luster he had earned in his 15-year career.

“I did not believe what Tom had to say,” former quarterback and ESPN analyst Mark Brunell said. “Those balls were deflated. Someone had to do it and I don’t believe there’s an equipment manager in the NFL that would on his own initiative deflate a ball without the starting quarterback’s approval. I just didn’t believe what Tom Brady had to say.”

Former Steelers running back Jerome Bettis added, “I’m so disappointed because I thought this was a perfect opportunity for Tom Brady to go and say, ‘You know what? I made a mistake. I blew it. It’s on me. I’ll take the blame here, and this will go away.’ He didn’t do that … I’m disappointed in you, Tom Brady.”

Fellow ESPN analyst Brian Dawkins said it was “unbelievable” for Brady not to be aware when he touched the balls every play, while Hall of Famer Troy Aikman agreed that the balls would not be altered unless Brady had instructed an equipment manager to do so.

“It’s obvious that Tom Brady had something to do with this,” Aikman told a Dallas radio station — before either of Brady’s or Belichick’s denials. “For the balls to be deflated, that doesn’t happen unless the quarterback wants that to happen, I can assure you of that. Now the question becomes: Did Bill Belichick know about it?”

Incredibly, the already tarnished Belichick left his press conference earlier in the day with more plausible deniability, particularly to quarterbacks familiar with the ball-picking process.

“I listened to Bill Belichick and I believed every word he said,” eight-year NFL pro Matt Leinart told The Post. “Not once did a head coach ever have any input in that. It’s strictly a quarterback-to-equipment-manager thing and that’s pretty universal. Those are the only two guys that have any part of that process.

“You go through the whole bag and you literally handpick them and say, ‘This one is good, this one’s too hard, put a little bit of air in that one, take a little bit out. … It’s a full 20-minute process to make sure on Sunday you have the exact football you want to be throwing. Quarterbacks are very, very picky about how they want their ball and that goes on everywhere.”

Leinart, now an analyst with Fox Sports, said he saw numerous things done to balls in his career, including being rubbed with varying substances and thrown in dryers, to get the right feel. He said he didn’t consider it cheating because “every team doctors up the ball to the liking of their quarterback” and that while deflation would help Brady with his grip, it would take away velocity and distance on throws.

Nevertheless, Ravens defensive end Chris Canty — whose team lost to the Patriots in the AFC divisional round — thinks it is just another example of New England’s willingness to do anything to gain an unfair edge.

“The Patriots are habitual line-steppers,” Canty said while appearing on NBCSN on Wednesday. “If the allegations are true, then you are talking about attacking the integrity of our game and I have an issue with that.

“What I’m going to say about the deflating of the balls, to me there is no difference than performance-enhancing drugs. You are cheating at that point. You are getting a competitive advantage outside of the rule book and there has to be some sort of consequences for that.”

https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/troy1.jpg

Troy Aikman

Aikman thinks the consequences should be harsher than the suspensions handed to the Saints for Bountygate in 2012, when NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell claimed ignorance was not an excuse.

“Sean Payton did not cheat,” Aikman said of the Saints coach who was suspended an entire year. “There was nothing that Sean Payton and the Saints did that was illegal. And they did not give themselves a competitive edge.

“Now twice, under Bill Belichick and possibly a third time, they’ve cheated and given themselves an advantage. To me, the punishment for the Patriots and/or Bill Belichick has to be more severe than what the punishment was for the New Orleans Saints.”

After a season filled with scandals — including Goodell’s indefensible decision to initially suspend Ray Rice two games in the former Ravens running back’s domestic violence case — Aikman thinks enormous pressure is on Goodell, especially due to his friendship with Patriots owner Robert Kraft.

“There’s a lot of coaches and a lot of people that look upon the Patriots as a team that’s been favored in some of the things that have happened — I thought the punishment he got for Spygate was a slap on the wrist, was next to nothing — so we’ll see,” Aikman said.

 

[russ_watters]

Tom Brady has NOT thrown enough footballs in his career to sense a two psi difference in inflation pressure? Anybody believe that?

Considering he specified in the press conference exactly what [legal] pressure he prefers (12.5 psi), no.

Folow-up question: anyone think it will take any less than slightly longer than 2 weeks for the NFL to investigate this and conclude if there was wrongdoing?

 

[russ_watters]

The league takes this stuff seriously. It's not some minor misstep like repeatedly beating or raping people

Rape and spousal abuse? Unimportant. Twitter and Youtube, on the other hand, are potentially catastrophic.

 

[Dotini]

Rape and spousal abuse? Unimportant. Twitter and Youtube, on the other hand, are potentially catastrophic.

For the NFL to lose its tax-exempt status, now that would be a true catastrophe!

 

[Bystander]

any less than slightly longer than 2 weeks

Not A chance.

tax-exempt status

WHAT? No. No. Uh-uh. No. Can't be. Is it?

 

[SteamKing]

Does anyone know if there's a standard they use to measure football pressure? How long does it take for the footballs to condition to constant temperature? Is pigskin really used to make them, and is there a way to determine the rate pigskin leaks air, especially while it's in use? Is there an actual pigskin standard? When the pressure was measured after the game, did they do that to all the balls? Is it routine to do so? My god, am I actually thinking this much about footballs?

Although American footballs are nicknamed 'pigskins', there is no evidence that any actual pigs are or were involved in their manufacture (at least for modern balls).

Like all inflatable balls made for various sports, the actual construction is composite. There is a rubber bladder inserted under the outer covering, which bladder is what actually contains the compressed air when the ball is inflated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_(ball)

And there is an article (with video!) which discusses the making of footballs:

http://www.popsci.com/entertainment-amp-gaming/article/2009-01/making-football

 

[Borg]

Tom Brady has NOT thrown enough footballs in his career to sense a two psi difference in inflation pressure? Anybody believe that?

Maybe it was an honest mistake - like checking the pressure while they were in a 200 degree oven.

 

[SteamKing]

I think the more interesting question here is, if deflated balls supposedly are more beneficial to the team on offense, how did the Patriots make sure the balls were deflated when they had the ball, but when the ball was in the Colts' control, it was

1. magically re-inflated to proper pressure, or
2. the Colts offense was too inept to take advantage of a deflated ball to boost their offense like the Patriots allegedly did.

What did Dreamboat know and when did he know it? Is there any possibility that Gisele is behind this?

 

[Dotini]

WHAT? No. No. Uh-uh. No. Can't be. Is it?

[PLAIN]http://espn.go.com/nfl/story...xempt-status-challenged-us-senator-tom-coburn[/PLAIN]
It's true, if slightly off-topic. But it provides a reason for the NFL and the Patriots to tread very lightly right now.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9...xempt-status-challenged-us-senator-tom-coburn

 

[gmax137]

I think the more interesting question here is, if deflated balls supposedly are more beneficial to the team on offense, how did the Patriots make sure the balls were deflated when they had the ball, but when the ball was in the Colts' control, it was

1. magically re-inflated to proper pressure, or
2. the Colts offense was too inept to take advantage of a deflated ball to boost their offense like the Patriots allegedly did.

What did Dreamboat know and when did he know it? Is there any possibility that Gisele is behind this?

Each team uses its own set when they are playing offense.

 

[jack476]

Does anyone know if there's a standard they use to measure football pressure? How long does it take for the footballs to condition to constant temperature? Is pigskin really used to make them, and is there a way to determine the rate pigskin leaks air, especially while it's in use? Is there an actual pigskin standard? When the pressure was measured after the game, did they do that to all the balls? Is it routine to do so? My god, am I actually thinking this much about footballs?

Pigskin as in literal skin from a pig? No, it's a synthetic material now.

As for your other questions, yes. They take that stuff all extremely seriously.

 

[JonDE]

Each team uses its own set when they are playing offense.

This is correct. It is why no one noticed until the ball was intercepted. It makes Tom Brady's story even more unbelievable. A linebacker, who almost never handles the football, could immediately tell the ball was underinflated, yet a quarterback, who handles it constantly, cannot?

 

[Astronuc]

May be he's always used underinflated balls.

Perhaps there was a change in 2006/2007.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/deflat...-why-patriots-don-t-fumble-003107565-nfl.html

Sharp’s idea was to look at fumbles. That led him to a more refined topic: how well the Patriots held onto the ball both before and after the 2006 season, which happened to be the year Brady and Peyton Manning pushed for a rule change which allowed each team to provide their own footballs for games.

“Something significant changed from 2006 to 2007 that allowed them to retain the football,” Sharp said by phone Tuesday, “and that continues today.”

 

[leroyjenkens]

Tom Brady has NOT thrown enough footballs in his career to sense a two psi difference in inflation pressure? Anybody believe that?

I used to play Magic the Gathering, which is a card game. You're allowed to have as many cards in your deck as you want, but the minimum is 60, and that's the amount me and my friends always played with. Strategically, you want as few cards as possible so the card combinations you have in the deck are most likely to come up.
Well, we played so much that if I had 61 cards in my deck, or 59 cards in my deck, I could tell just by holding the deck. If I had 2 cards extra, the deck felt huge. 2 cards missing and it felt very small.
We also used pennies as life counters, and they were in a box that we would reach into to grab the initial starting life for the game, which was 20. I could reach in and grab a handful of pennies and know just by feeling it if I needed to drop a couple or pick a couple more up. I would count them anyway to make sure, but I could pick up exactly 20 pennies, just from feel, most of the time.
Does he know two PSI was missing from the football? Yes. He would know if a quarter of a PSI was missing from a football.

 

[jtbell]

MIT physicist Max Tegmark weighs in on the "Deflategate" controversy:

Deflation Experiments Show Patriots May Have a Point After All (NY Times)

 

[BobG]

Maybe it was an honest mistake - like checking the pressure while they were in a 200 degree oven.

Or the referee room where the air pressure is checked has low air pressure. That 12.5 to 13.5 psi is a relative air pressure. The air pressure in the ball is 12.5 to 13.5 psi greater than the external air pressure.

Probably most people have worked in a buidling where the doors won't close when the weather's just right or the doors are incredibly hard to open when the weather's just right. And it's usually the same doors that have a problem. It's because the air pressure in that room or that part of the buidling is different than the rest of the building.

If it's hard to open the door to get out of the referee room, then your mystery is solved.

Not to mention that the difference in indoor temperature and outdoor temperature would have an effect. Except, unlike a few articles have posted, you have to use the absolute pressure inside the ball, not the relative pressure, when using the PV=NRT equation. Atmospheric pressure is usually around 14.7 psi, so they should be plugging approximately 27.2 psi (and using Kelvin for temperature) when figuring out how much pressure is lost due to the temperature difference.

 

[JorisL]

https://medium.com/the-cauldron/deflategate-and-the-softening-of-the-american-mind-8b5580a9cd3c

Haven't thought to deeply about it, it seems plausible after the quick read this afternoon.
The main point, of oversensational media coverage, it raises is more important and quite universal across the world.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Each team uses its own set when they are playing offense.

I am not an American football fan and thus do not really follow the game at all, but this statement above is astounding to me. Up until this point, I have always thought that the individual stadium or the NFL itself would provide standardized balls in all games, so that every team will use the same ball, as I believe is the case in every other sport where a ball is involved (e.g. soccer, lacrosse, basketball, baseball). However, correct me if I'm mistaken about this.

 

[BobG]

I am not an American football fan and thus do not really follow the game at all, but this statement above is astounding to me. Up until this point, I have always thought that the individual stadium or the NFL itself would provide standardized balls in all games, so that every team will use the same ball, as I believe is the case in every other sport where a ball is involved (e.g. soccer, lacrosse, basketball, baseball). However, correct me if I'm mistaken about this.

This rule changed in 2006 to allow each team to use their own game balls when on offense. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, among other quarterbacks, lobbied pretty hard and successfully for this rule change.

And I agree it's a pretty bizarre rule change.

Prior to 2006, quarterbacks pretty much had to deal with whatever ball was given to them. Super Bowls were always a nightmare. Being a big game, the NFL would use brand new footballs for the big game and they were slick and shiny. In the 2002 Super Bowl, one quarterback, Brad Johnson of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, paid the equipment staff a few thousand dollars to rough up the surface of the game balls before the game, just so they wouldn't be so slick. The opposing quarterback not only knew what Johnson was going to do, but offered to chip in a few thousand of his own, if necessary. It wasn't "cheating" per se. Just two quarterbacks that didn't want to embarrass themselves in the biggest game of their career simply because someone that may have never played football thought the game was important enough to warrant the "best possible" balls for the game.

I'm not sure quarterbacks really thought they'd get their own personal balls for games, but they at least wanted balls that were actually the best for playing with - not balls that just looked really nice.

Baseball, on the other hand, is really protective about their balls. You scratch one of them, spit on one of them (especially spit supplemented with some other foreign substance), you even sweat too much on them, and you're tossed out of the game. The only exception is the baseball club in Denver. They're allowed to keep their balls in some kind of humidor until game time due to the effects altitude and a dry climate have on the flight of the ball (and I think players still hit more home runs in Denver than in any other ballpark).

 

[nsaspook]

http://fox59.com/2015/05/09/nfl-com...punishment-for-role-in-deflategate-next-week/

(May 9, 2015) – According to the New York Daily News, an announcement with details regarding Tom Brady’s suspension is expected next week.

The New York Daily News reports that it’s no longer a matter of “if” NFL commissioner Roger Goodell will suspend Brady, but it’s a matter of “how long” he will suspend him.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Probably suspend him until the start of the season.

 

[russ_watters]

Probably suspend him until the start of the season.

A four-games suspension?

 

[JonDE]

"Everything is being studied. Everything is being considered," an NFL source told the Herald.

Now, that doesn't mean that Brady will be suspended for the year, but it does mean that the NFL is at least considering it. Brady's punishment could end up being a shorter suspension, but the source told the Herald not to dismiss the possibility of a year-long suspension.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25177527/report-tom-brady-could-be-suspended-for-up-to-one-year
It also mentions it is even more likely because he refused to aid in the investigation, by not turning over his cell phone and e-mails.

 

[nsaspook]

The National Football League suspended New England Patriots quarterback Tom Brady for four regular season games without pay "for conduct detrimental to the integrity of the NFL," the league announced Monday afternoon.

The league also announced that the team—which won the Stupor Bowl earlier this year—would be fined $1 million and forced to forfeit its first-round pick in the 2016 draft and its fourth-round selection in the 2017 draft.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102650340

The thing I don't like is that regular two employees of the team were suspended without pay for doing something they never would have done without exact orders from the QB and if they didn't do as ordered might have been risking their jobs. Brady has plenty of funds to handle his wait but I'm pretty sure the equipment guys don't.

 

[BobG]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102650340

The thing I don't like is that regular two employees of the team were suspended without pay for doing something they never would have done without exact orders from the QB and if they didn't do as ordered might have been risking their jobs. Brady has plenty of funds to handle his wait but I'm pretty sure the equipment guys don't.

The Monday release said that Patriots owner Robert Kraft told NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell last week that two team employees had been indefinitely suspended without pay. The league said neither man could be reinstated without permission.

Wow! At least Brady gave them some pretty cool souvenirs. Customer demand for Tom Brady merchandise has doubled since his suspension. Maybe they should sell them now while the demand is high.

 

[russ_watters]

I smell a wrongful termination lawsuit.

 

[SteamKing]

A four-games suspension?

It's more than that. It's a four-game suspension without pay.

Brady leaves about $2 million on the table because somebody squeezed his balls during the Colts game.

 

[russ_watters]

It's more than that. It's a four-game suspension without pay.

I was joking with V50 about which four games the suspension could be for; The first four games of the year are preseason games. So it wasn't really a prescient prediction.

Brady leaves about $2 million on the table because somebody squeezed his balls during the Colts game.

I rather suspect that in relative terms that's a lot less money than the equipment managers are losing by getting fired. I am very sympathetic to them. Brady, notsomuch.

 

[SteamKing]

I was joking with V50 about which four games the suspension could be for; The first four games of the year are preseason games. So it wasn't really a prescient prediction.

No, I don't think these are pre-season games the suspension will apply to.

In the NFL, the pre-season games are like exhibition games: none of the stats count, and the won-lost record doesn't matter to the rest of the season, but the owners get to pocket some money from ticket sales. The players are all technically in training camp, where each usually receives a nominal amount as a weekly stipend (usually something small, like $500), which is not related to the salary spelled out in his playing contract.

The Patriots will not have Brady's services during the first four weeks of the NFL regular season in 2015. Brady's agent says he plans to appeal the NFL decision and suspension later this summer.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25181545/tom-brady-suspended-4-games-by-nfl-patriots-lose-2016-first-rounder

 

[BobG]

It's more than that. It's a four-game suspension without pay.

Brady leaves about $2 million on the table because somebody squeezed his balls during the Colts game.

Actually, if you read the report, it's pretty clear they did this over the course of at least the entire 2014 season. Looking at messages before the 2014 season even began, they were probably doing it during at least the 2013 season, as well. The Colts seemed to know ahead of time the balls would probably be underinflated, so it wasn't an extremely close held secret by the end of the season.

I don't really know how to put this into perspective against a lot of the other stunts players pull, such as trying to get away with spraying their jerseys with cooking oil, throwing spitballs in baseball, etc, but I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to put it in the same punishment category as using performance enhancement drugs. A little surprising, but not completely unreasonable.

 

[russ_watters]

No, I don't think these are pre-season games the suspension will apply to.

I'm/was aware that that was never a possibility (because it would be stupid/pointless). That's what makes it a joke.

 

[JohnPrior3]

This is correct. It is why no one noticed until the ball was intercepted. It makes Tom Brady's story even more unbelievable. A linebacker, who almost never handles the football, could immediately tell the ball was underinflated, yet a quarterback, who handles it constantly, cannot?

Ravens had alerted the Colts and the NFL of the possibility of football tampering. The referees also handle the footballs between plays, it is strange that it was the linebacker who took notice.

 

[JohnPrior3]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25177527/report-tom-brady-could-be-suspended-for-up-to-one-year
It also mentions it is even more likely because he refused to aid in the investigation, by not turning over his cell phone and e-mails.

I am a Patriots fan, but I'm really doing my best to see this from an unbiased stand point. According to the Wells Report, both locker room attendant's gave up their text messages. Why would Brady then have to give up his private information?

What I also find interesting about this being a prominent argument against Brady is that in his appeal, he is required to give up this personal information. The texts and emails will come out. If Brady really was hiding a dark secret, he should not be appealing his suspension because it gives the league an opportunity to suspend him even more games if they do in fact find him guilty of cheating.

Again, I support the Patriots no matter what. I'm from Boston and my loyalty cannot be tainted. In my opinion, both sides are full of inconsistencies and seem to lack truthfulness.

 

[Muti]

I do not know if he is a star player or just last guy in his team. He is controversial or popular. I think player must know how a ball might behave when he kicks it. Other factors like rain or dew on ball can also make ball behave differently. I am excluding any tempering with the ball.

 

[russ_watters]

I am a Patriots fan, but I'm really doing my best to see this from an unbiased stand point. According to the Wells Report, both locker room attendant's gave up their text messages. Why would Brady then have to give up his private information?

What does one thing have to do with another? When investigarors investigate, they investigate everyone who may be involved.

 

[JohnPrior3]

What does one thing have to do with another? When investigarors investigate, they investigate everyone who may be involved.

From a legal perspective, the league has probable cause to investigate conversations with Brady and any equipment personnel. They do not have probable cause to look at every message Brady has sent say to his wife or to friends. I mean come on, who wants to make his or her phone records public? I know I certainly don't. Regardless, when the league investigates the appeal Brady MUST give up that personal info he didn't before and any findings that prove his guilt may INCREASE the suspension. If Brady's messages were so bad to begin with, he would have taken the four game suspension to save himself any worse punishment.