Triangle and logarithm problem

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    Logarithm Triangle
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a problem involving the sides of a triangle and a logarithmic expression. Participants explore the conditions under which the logarithm yields a real value, considering various potential relationships between the sides \(a\), \(b\), and \(c\) of triangle \(\Delta ABC\).

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express uncertainty about how to approach the problem and analyze the logarithmic expression, noting that the argument must be greater than zero.
  • One participant suggests that the problem is symmetric in \(a\), \(b\), and \(c\), leading to the conclusion that options A, B, and C do not fit, implying that the answer must be D.
  • Another participant provides a mathematical argument based on the triangle inequalities, demonstrating that \(4(bc+ca+ab) - (a+b+c)^2\) is always positive, thus ensuring the logarithm is real.
  • There is a discussion about the symmetry of the problem, with participants agreeing that the correct answer must also reflect this symmetry.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the symmetry of the problem and the positivity of the logarithmic argument. However, there is no consensus on the validity of the proposed answers A, B, and C, with some arguing they do not fit while others have not explicitly stated their positions on these options.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the problem's conditions depend on the properties of triangle sides, which may impose additional constraints not fully explored in the discussion.

Saitama
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Problem:
Given that $a,b$ and $c$ are the sides of $\Delta ABC$ such that $$z=\log_{2^a+2^{-a}} \left(4(ab+bc+ca)-(a+b+c)^2\right)$$ then $z$ has a real value if and only if

A)a=b=2c
B)3a=2b=c
C)a-b=3c
D)None of these

Attempt:
I am not sure where to start with this kind of problem. I wrote the expression inside the logarithm as follows:
$$-(a^2+b^2+c^2-2(ab+bc+ca))$$
Since, anything inside the logarithm must be greater than zero, I have
$$a^2+b^2+c^2-2(ab+bc+ca)<0 \Rightarrow a^2+b^2+c^2<2(ab+bc+ca)$$
But $a^2+b^2+c^2 >ab+bc+ca$, I get $ab+bc+ca>0$. I doubt this is going to help.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!
 
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Pranav said:
Problem:
Given that $a,b$ and $c$ are the sides of $\Delta ABC$ such that $$z=\log_{2^a+2^{-a}} \left(4(ab+bc+ca)-(a+b+c)^2\right)$$ then $z$ has a real value if and only if

A)a=b=2c
B)3a=2b=c
C)a-b=3c
D)None of these

Attempt:
I am not sure where to start with this kind of problem. I wrote the expression inside the logarithm as follows:
$$-(a^2+b^2+c^2-2(ab+bc+ca))$$
Since, anything inside the logarithm must be greater than zero,

Hey Pranav! :)

I agree that the argument to the logarithm should be greater than zero.
From that point on the problem is symmetric in $a,b,c$.
That is, they can be swapped around giving the same expression.
In other words, none of the answers A, B, or C fit.
Therefore the answer must be D.

I have
$$a^2+b^2+c^2-2(ab+bc+ca)<0 \Rightarrow a^2+b^2+c^2<2(ab+bc+ca)$$
But $a^2+b^2+c^2 >ab+bc+ca$, I get $ab+bc+ca>0$. I doubt this is going to help.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

I believe that should be a $\ge$ sign.

Anyway, since $a,b,c$ are the sides of a triangle (which you did not use yet), you can conclude that this is always the case.
 
If $a,b,c$ are the sides of a triangle then $b+c > a$, $c+a>b$ and $a+b>c$. Multiply the first of those inequalities by $a$, the second by $b$ and the third by $c$, and add. That gives $2(bc+ca+ab) > a^2+b^2+c^2.$ Therefore $4(bc+ca+ab) > a^2+b^2+c^2 + 2(bc+ca+ab) = (a+b+c)^2.$ So $4(bc+ca+ab) - (a+b+c)^2$ is always positive and therefore always has a real logarithm (to any base).
 
I like Serena said:
That is, they can be swapped around giving the same expression.

Hi ILS! :)

I understand the above statement but how do you conclude the following:
In other words, none of the answers A, B, or C fit.
:confused:

Opalg said:
If $a,b,c$ are the sides of a triangle then $b+c > a$, $c+a>b$ and $a+b>c$. Multiply the first of those inequalities by $a$, the second by $b$ and the third by $c$, and add. That gives $2(bc+ca+ab) > a^2+b^2+c^2.$ Therefore $4(bc+ca+ab) > a^2+b^2+c^2 + 2(bc+ca+ab) = (a+b+c)^2.$ So $4(bc+ca+ab) - (a+b+c)^2$ is always positive and therefore always has a real logarithm (to any base).

Thanks a lot Opalg, very nicely done. :)
 
Pranav said:
Hi ILS! :)

I understand the above statement but how do you conclude the following:
In other words, none of the answers A, B, or C fit.

Since the problem is symmetric in $a, b, c$ the correct answer will also have to be symmetric in $a, b, c$. Neither of the answers A, B, or C are.
 
I like Serena said:
Since the problem is symmetric in $a, b, c$ the correct answer will also have to be symmetric in $a, b, c$. Neither of the answers A, B, or C are.

I see it now, thanks ILS! :)
 

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