Two-sided Prinicipal Ideal - the Noncommutative Case - D&F

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the properties of two-sided principal ideals in noncommutative rings, specifically referencing Dummit and Foote's text on Abstract Algebra. Participants are exploring the implications of noncommutativity on the generation of ideals and the closure properties associated with them.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the set {ras | r, s ∈ R} is not necessarily the two-sided ideal generated by a, noting confusion over the statement regarding closure under addition.
  • Another participant clarifies that while ideals are closed under addition, in noncommutative rings, the inability to rearrange factors complicates the formation of sums that would belong to the ideal.
  • It is pointed out that in noncommutative cases, the ideal generated by a is RaR, which includes all finite sums of elements of the form ras, r, s ∈ R, unlike the simpler set {ras | r, s ∈ R}.
  • A suggestion is made to find counterexamples in simple noncommutative rings to illustrate the point that {ras | r, s ∈ R} may not form an ideal.
  • One participant expresses appreciation for the clarification and indicates an intention to explore examples involving 2 by 2 matrices.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the definition of ideals and the implications of noncommutativity, but there is ongoing uncertainty regarding specific examples and the closure properties of the sets discussed. The discussion remains unresolved as participants explore different perspectives and examples.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the need for specific examples to illustrate the properties of ideals in noncommutative rings and the dependence on definitions that may vary between contexts.

Math Amateur
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I am reading Dummit and Foote's book: Abstract Algebra ... ... and am currently focused on Section 7.4 Properties of Ideals ... ...

I have a basic question regarding the generation of a two sided principal ideal in the noncommutative case ...

In Section 7.4 on pages 251-252 Dummit and Foote write the following:
?temp_hash=ca92414d4802ac8f6cfd56bd2273af5e.png

?temp_hash=ca92414d4802ac8f6cfd56bd2273af5e.png
In the above text we read:" ... ... If ##R## is not commutative, however, the set ##\{ ras \ | \ r, s \in R \}## is not necessarily the two-sided ideal generated by ##a## since it need not be closed under addition (in this case the ideal generated by ##a## is the ideal ##RaR##, which consists of all finite sums of elements of the form ##ras, r,s \in R##). ... ... "
I must confess I do not understand or follow this argument ... I hope someone can clarify (slowly and clearly
confused.png
) what it means ... ...Specifically ... ... why, exactly, is the set ##\{ ras \ | \ r, s \in R \}## not necessarily the two-sided ideal generated by ##a##?The reason given is "since it need not be closed under addition" ... I definitely do not follow this statement ... surely an ideal is closed under addition! ...... ... and why, exactly does the two-sided ideal generated by a consist of all finite sums of elements of the form ##ras, r,s \in R## ... ... ?
Hope someone can help ... ...

Peter================================================================================To give readers the background and context to the above text from Dummit and Foote, I am providing the introductory page of Section 7.4 as follows ... ...
?temp_hash=ca92414d4802ac8f6cfd56bd2273af5e.png
 

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Math Amateur said:
Specifically ... ... why, exactly, is the set {ras | r,s∈R}{ras | r,s∈R}\{ ras \ | \ r, s \in R \} not necessarily the two-sided ideal generated by aaa?
In an ideal ##\mathcal{I}## you have ##x+y\in \mathcal{I}## for elements ##x\,,\,y\in \mathcal{I}##. This is a basic part of its definition.
If you now have two elements ##ras \; (r,s\in R\,; a\in \mathcal{I})## and ##paq \; (p,q \in R\,; a\in \mathcal{I})## there is - in general - no way to write ##ras+paq=uav## because you cannot pull the factors ##r,s,p,q## on the other side of ##a##.
Therefore ##\mathcal{I}=(a) = RaR = LC(\{ras \,|\, r,s \in R\}) \supsetneq \{ras \,|\, r,s \in R\}## is - in general - a proper inclusion. The latter is only a set.

In the commutative case we have
##ras+paq=r(as)+p(aq)=r(sa)+p(qa)=(rs)a+(pq)a=(rs+pq)a## and all linear combinations are of the form ##ua\;(u=rs+pq \in R)##.
However, this calculation is not allowed in non-commutative rings.
 
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You should try to find a counterexamples yourself where ##\{ras~\vert~r,s\in R\}## is not an ideal. Think of some simple noncommutative rings.
 
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Thanks fresh_42 ... that was most helpful ...

Thanks for suggestion micromass ... will try messing around with 2 by 2 matrices ...

Peter
 

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