Understanding the Doppler Effect: The Red Shift and Our Place in the Universe

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    Doppler Doppler effect
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of the Doppler Effect, specifically the redshift observed in extragalactic bodies, and its implications for understanding the structure of the universe. Participants explore the question of whether the observed redshift indicates that Earth or the local group of galaxies is at the center of the universe.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how the redshift of extragalactic bodies, which indicates they are moving away from us, does not imply that we are at the center of the universe.
  • Another participant argues that if all distances are expanding uniformly, then every observer in the universe would perceive themselves as central, suggesting no special position for Earth.
  • This participant also notes that the concept of a "center" may not be meaningful in an infinite universe or in a finite but boundaryless universe, such as the surface of a balloon.
  • A third participant provides an analogy involving expanding bread dough with raisins, illustrating how observers in different locations would perceive the expansion similarly, reinforcing the idea that no one location is central.
  • Another participant mentions mathematical reasons against the idea of a center and suggests that if there were a center, it would imply an extraordinary circumstance for Earth to be located there, which lacks supporting evidence.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the redshift does not imply a central position for Earth, but multiple competing views about the implications of this observation and the nature of the universe remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various interpretations of the concept of a "center" in the universe, highlighting the complexity of defining such a term in the context of cosmic expansion. There are also mentions of mathematical discussions that may not have been fully elaborated in this thread.

OSalcido
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So the Red shift of extragalactic bodies means that they are moving away from us. And this effect is seen for all extra galactic objects minus the local group of galaxies. How then is it known that our local group is not the center of the universe? Wouldn't the fact that everything is moving away from us point to us being the center? What evidence disproves us being the center? Thanks
 
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OSalcido said:
...Wouldn't the fact that everything is moving away from us point to us being the center? What evidence disproves us being the center? Thanks

there is no evidence that suggests we are at the center, for two reasons:

if all distances are expanding the same percentage per unit time (one percent in 140 million years) then it looks to everybody as if they are central to the expansion. Beings in distant galaxies (if there are lifeforms out there) see the same evidence we do---everything surrounding them except for their local group is receding from them exactly the way it is from us. So there is no evidence that we are special.

there is no clear meaning of the word CENTER in this context.
an infinite line has no center, if space is infinite there is no center.
if space is finite then it might be boundaryless, like the surface of a balloon (except 3D) and the surface of a balloon has no location in it that you can call the "center". As far as I know there is no point in space, at the present moment, that it would make sense to call the "center" of space.

so what you suggest does not work.
 
i agree with marcus, but i have another way of describing his first point (my uni lecturer likes this one haha)

if uv got some bread dough, with raisins in it or nuts or whateva, and u put it in the oven, the bread expandes, rite? but the raisins expand away from each other at the same rate

but if u were sitting on one of those raisins it would seem as if u were still and the other raisins were moving away from u, except those that have no dough between you and them... this also falls into the expansion theory of the universe, where the dough in the bread is thought of as the empty space between galaxies...

and of course, its red shifted coz the wavelength of the light gets longer the further away the galaxy is coz its moving away the fastest... like the raisins =P

hope that helped
 
There are a lot of mathmatical reasons why it doesn't work, already discussed, but how about an egocentric reason: if there were a center, we'd have to have hit some sort of cosmic lottery to be at it and there is no reason to believe (evidence to suggest) we are that special.
 

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