Vavryčuk's conformal FLRW metric as an alternative to dark energy and dark matter

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter member 673059
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Cosmology Dark energy
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around Václav Vavryčuk's proposal of a "conformal FLRW metric" as an alternative to the standard FLRW metric in cosmology, particularly in relation to explaining phenomena typically attributed to dark energy and dark matter. Participants explore the implications of this metric on various astrophysical observations and theoretical frameworks.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that Vavryčuk's conformal FLRW metric claims to explain the dimming of type 1a supernovae and other phenomena without invoking dark energy or dark matter.
  • Others highlight that the concept of a conformal FLRW metric predates Vavryčuk, referencing earlier works by Leopold Infred, Alfred Schild, and others.
  • A participant mentions Lucas Lombriser's recent article suggesting that a conformal FLRW metric could be physically equivalent to Lambda-CDM under certain transformations, but warns that not applying these transformations uniformly could lead to modified gravity theories.
  • Some argue that many modified gravity theories exist that can explain dark energy phenomena, but fewer address both dark matter and dark energy phenomena effectively.
  • Concerns are raised regarding potential errors in Vavryčuk's papers, particularly in the dimensional analysis of equations and the implications for rotation curves in galaxies.
  • Participants express uncertainty about the validity of Vavryčuk's claims regarding flat rotation curves and whether his model accurately predicts these without dark matter.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with some supporting Vavryčuk's approach while others raise significant concerns about the mathematical validity and implications of his work. There is no consensus on the correctness of Vavryčuk's claims or the overall merit of his proposed metric.

Contextual Notes

Participants note potential limitations in Vavryčuk's equations, including issues with dimensional consistency and the derivation of rotation curves. These unresolved mathematical details contribute to the ongoing debate about the validity of his model.

member 673059
Václav Vavryčuk has written two articles on replacing the standard FLRW metric in cosmology with what he calls a "conformal FLRW metric", which he claims explains astrophysical and cosmological phenomena traditionally attributed to dark energy and dark matter/MOND, such as the dimming of type 1a supernovae, the baryonic Tully-Fisher relation, and the radial acceleration relation in galaxies:

Cosmological Redshift and Cosmic Time Dilation in the FLRW Metric

Gravitational orbits in the expanding Universe revisited

 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: ohwilleke
Physics news on Phys.org
I was wrong in calling the metric "Vavryčuk's conformal FLRW metric" in the title; the concept of the conformal FLRW metric was first been developed by Leopold Infred and Alfred Schild in 1945 in

A New Approach to Kinematic Cosmology

Various others have studied the conformal FLRW metric in cosmology as well long before Vavryčuk, such as
That the conformal FLRW metric could replace dark energy seems to have first been studied by Behnke et al in 2002:

Description of supernova data in conformal cosmology without cosmological constant

 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: ohwilleke
Lucas Lombriser wrote an article published last month about using metric transformations to cast and reinterpret Lambda-CDM into static Minkowski spacetime, resulting in a theory using the conformal FLRW metric physically equivalent to Lambda-CDM, but where the interpretations of the phenomena are different:

Cosmology in Minkowski space


This implies that when properly done, there should not be any differences in predictions for observable quantities between cosmologies using the standard FLRW metric and a conformal FLRW metric.

However, Lombriser also said in the article that
It is worthwhile noting that if not performing the analogous transformations in the metric
sector, or only performing them in the metric but not in the matter sector, one does modify
physics. For instance, if not applying the conformal transformation for the matter sector in
Eq. (16), one recovers a scalar-tensor modification of gravity.
Vavryčuk's model seems to only do a transformation in the metric sector but not in the matter sector when compared to Lambda-CDM, so it should be equivalent to a modified gravity theory. This explains his second article where he was able to derive MOND-like effects in galaxies.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: ohwilleke
There aren't all that many modified gravity theories that explain both dark matter phenomena and dark energy phenomena (kudos to conformal gravity for doing both), even though there are maybe a dozen of those that are meaningfully different from each other.

But there are a very great many more gravity theories that can at least explain dark energy phenomena without dark energy. So the result isn't that surprising.

This is possible because locally dark energy phenomena are extremely weak effects (even relative to dark matter phenomena). So, a lot of minutia that don't perfectly cancel out, which distinguish slight variations on GR from plain vanilla GR, that would be routinely neglected in other contexts and can't be measured directly, are still big enough to be relevant to determining the source of dark energy phenomena.
 
ohwilleke said:
There aren't all that many modified gravity theories that explain both dark matter phenomena and dark energy phenomena [...]
Alas, Madeleine continues to ignore the question I asked her in post #2. Instead, she doubles down in her post #4, where she asserts:

Madeleine Birchfield said:
[...] explains [Vavrychuk's] second article where he was able to derive MOND-like effects in galaxies.

So do you (@ohwilleke) think that Vavrychuk's paper "Gravitational orbits in the expanding universe revisited" (2nd link in post #1 above) actually does what Vavrychuk claims? I.e.,

Vavrychuk said:
... The theory predicts flat rotation curves without an assumption of dark matter surrounding the galaxy...

Does Vavrychuk indeed do this in section 2.4 of this paper? If "yes", are you sure? If "no", then where?

Full disclosure: I'm wondering whether anyone besides me has actually checked this. :oldfrown:
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: PeroK
There is at least one error in Vavryčuk's paper. In equation 23, the term ##\alpha c^2##, which equals ##- \frac{G M}{r}## by equation 22, has units of ##\frac{L^2}{T^2}##; however, the rest of the terms in equation 23 has units of ##\frac{L}{T^2}## by dimensional analysis. Furthermore, when one takes the limit of equation 23 as ##\alpha## goes to ##0## and ##c^2## goes to ##\infty##, one gets
$$\frac{\dot{a}}{a} \dot{r} + \ddot{r} + \frac{G M}{r} - r \dot{\phi}^2 = 0$$
When evaluating equation 25, which Vavryčuk claims to be derivable from equation 23 at the above limits, one gets
$$\frac{1}{a} \frac{d}{d t} \left(a \dot{r}\right) = \frac{\dot{a}}{a} \dot{r} + \frac{1}{a} a \ddot{r} = - \frac{G M}{r^2} + \frac{(r \dot{\phi})^2}{r}$$
$$\frac{\dot{a}}{a} \dot{r} + \ddot{r} + \frac{G M}{r^2} - r \dot{\phi}^2 = 0$$
It is possible that Vavryčuk left out a factor of ##\frac{1}{r}## in the term ##\alpha c^2## in equation 23.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: ohwilleke
I've been waiting to see whether @ohwilleke will venture an opinion. Apparently not.

OK, well,... (Madeleine), the error you mentioned is relatively minor compared to the main error that I noticed. Which is: Vavrychuk's formulas, e.g., (25) do not yield asymptotically flat rotation curves for low acceleration. For circular orbits, his ##v_\phi## is proportional to ##r^{-1/2}##, exactly as in Newtonian gravitation. He seems not to understand that his formula (26) gives a constant of the motion, meaning something which is constant along the orbits (since it comes from the EoM). It doesn't mean that ##v_\phi## is constant for different orbits. This invalidates his core assertion in his abstract, i.e., that his theory "predicts flat rotation curves". :oldfrown:
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: PeroK
strangerep said:
I've been waiting to see whether @ohwilleke will venture an opinion. Apparently not.
Sorry, too busy fighting the forces of evil and defending widows and orphans in the real world this month.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Likes   Reactions: phinds, PhDeezNutz, nnunn and 1 other person

Similar threads

  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
5K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 264 ·
9
Replies
264
Views
23K
  • · Replies 62 ·
3
Replies
62
Views
11K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
5K
  • · Replies 72 ·
3
Replies
72
Views
10K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 30 ·
2
Replies
30
Views
6K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K