Were European countries as polluted as China in the past?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the pollution levels in China compared to historical pollution in European countries, particularly during the industrial revolution. Participants explore various aspects of air quality, health impacts, and regional pollution sources, while referencing specific locations and studies.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express skepticism about air quality results, citing local studies that rank their towns as highly polluted despite a lack of visible industrialization.
  • Concerns are raised about the impact of coal-fired power plants in the Midwest on air and water quality in downstream areas like Maine, including issues with mercury and cadmium contamination.
  • One participant mentions the historical pollution in Europe during the industrial revolution, referencing smog and acid rain as significant issues of the past.
  • There are contrasting views on the current state of pollution in China, with some participants asserting it is the worst globally, while others reflect on past pollution levels in Europe.
  • Discussions include the perception of living standards in Europe compared to China, with some participants arguing that European countries have made significant progress in pollution control and green energy initiatives.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether European countries were as polluted as China in the past, and multiple competing views remain regarding the current and historical pollution levels in both regions.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific studies and local conditions, indicating that the discussion is influenced by personal experiences and regional differences in pollution management. There are unresolved questions about the accuracy of pollution data and the historical context of environmental issues.

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I was shocked to see this

http://www.kiddofspeed.com/

And what about all N subs and waste Russia is supposed to be keeping safe?
 
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I don't trust air quality results after a national study ranked my town as being in the top ten, and we have two coal fired power plants in the area. Sithe wants to put another, even bigger, one in and there's a lot of controversy over it. Search "Desert Rock Power Plant"
 
Maine looks nice, and we're not heavily industrialized, but we are downstream from the big coal-fired power-plants in the Midwest. We have acid rain, high levels of mercury, cadmium, and other heavy metals in our pristine watersheds, and ozone alerts for asthma sufferers all summer long.
 
binzing said:
I don't trust air quality results after a national study ranked my town as being in the top ten, and we have two coal fired power plants in the area. Sithe wants to put another, even bigger, one in and there's a lot of controversy over it. Search "Desert Rock Power Plant"

I would think the long term health of the community is the biggest indicator.
 
turbo-1 said:
Maine looks nice, and we're not heavily industrialized, but we are downstream from the big coal-fired power-plants in the Midwest. We have acid rain, high levels of mercury, cadmium, and other heavy metals in our pristine watersheds, and ozone alerts for asthma sufferers all summer long.

I read some where that your rivers were not the cleanest but air pollution?
 
wolram said:
I read some where that your rivers were not the cleanest but air pollution?
Yes. EPA guidelines for air pollution were designed to monitor pollution locally, so the companies operating coal-fired power plants in the midwest simply equipped them with huge, tall stacks to shoot the effluent very high into the atmosphere, so upper-level winds could carry the pollutants to the Northeast states. In fact, we have health advisories against easting too much fresh-caught fish (mercury) and the livers of moose and deer (cadmium), among other things.
 
Pff, China must be BY FAR the worst country to live in.

I am sooo glad to be European !

marlon
 
  • #10
My bathroom?
 
  • #11
marlon said:
Pff, China must be BY FAR the worst country to live in.

I am sooo glad to be European !

marlon

And now the Euro Zone is the number 1 economy in the World also. The US having dropped to number 2 due to the loss of the dollar's value.
 
  • #12
wildman, you've heard of Desert Rock right? What do you think?
 
  • #13
wolram said:
Is there any place worse ?

You could try checking the back of my refrigerator.
 
  • #14
marlon said:
Pff, China must be BY FAR the worst country to live in.

I am sooo glad to be European !

marlon

Didn't the European countries used to be like this too during the industrial revolution?

What with all the smog and black forest(acid rain).
 
  • #15
wildman said:
And now the Euro Zone is the number 1 economy in the World also. The US having dropped to number 2 due to the loss of the dollar's value.

Well, i don't know if the EU are the No 1 economy in the world, and frankly i don't care.
All i know is that in this region, especially in Western Europe, the notion of green energy is very well established. Our governments are quite strict on pollution and that only reflects the quality of our societies. I admit, we have our problems as well but, if i look at the general living standard of the average John Doe in the street, i would say we are indeed the "richest" region in the world.

marlon
 
  • #16
Oerg said:
Didn't the European countries used to be like this too during the industrial revolution?

What with all the smog and black forest(acid rain).

Things were very bleak in the UK, but then no one new better, mad hatters did not know mercury was poisoning them, and people did not know what caused many illnesses.
 

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