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What is the interlockings of the material world to the spiritual world.

  1. Sep 1, 2007 #1
    I am knew at discussing this sort of topic out side of my group range, but want to see others view or feed back on a certain topic. When we speak of straight forward spirit and body, excluding all more detail branchings of what spirit and mind are, how do we determine there interlocking connection? This meaning, our mind, is the tool to interpret that that is beyond our mind. If this "spirit" or presence beyond our mind exist, then what happens to it when our mind no longer functions as a tool to receive and interpet it. Could it be that energy is the most simple construct in our tool the mind, meaning that empty presence that exist on an atomic level, that transitions into the metaphysical reals. If this were the case, our so called "spirit" aspect would then have logical reason for how it could coexist with our mind. If you think of our feelings and memory, on a atomic level, you see then that it is a strange mystery that in an object that is 99.999999 percent energy and non material, that when combined we experience. The only way i see this being possible, is if our metaphysical existance is embedded into the ever flowing existance of energy. This being said, and probasbly being confusing considering I don't really know how to explain it, is it possible that energy is what ties the material world to any religious truths if there are any? god (omni-present, infinite, all knowing, creation, ect.) energy (omni-present, infinite, every thought is starting and then ending with energy, big bang needed energy to get it going, ect)
    And of coarse I could go into great detail, but I'm trying to explain many years of researching into a quesrion. What is your thought on it, and how can I focus better to strengthen what it is I think I'm trying to understand? LOL
  2. jcsd
  3. Sep 2, 2007 #2
    It is difficult to tell from your description, but Energetic Taoism might provide some insight. This particular categorization of Taoism was invented by Huston Smith, whose books are still highly regarded a hundred years later.
  4. Sep 4, 2007 #3
    We do not know for sure, but the answer is highly probably NO. More likely, it is modulated gravitons that tie the material world to any religious truths but we do not know much about them. It seems that faith and radical speculation are about all that are available when trying to explain how the supernatural interacts/interfaces with the natural.
  5. Sep 29, 2007 #4
    Quick pedantic hijack -

    Huston Smith was born in 1919, so we'd be talking about say 50 years - present ;)
    (Obviously he's no spring chicken) :wink:

    Nice one though, gotta check out that Taoism stuff!

    Marco :)
  6. Sep 29, 2007 #5
    First some definitions that I use:

    "Order" is interaction. Note that there is no such thing as a non-repeating interaction. All interaction follows rules, and rules don't come and go.

    "God" is infinite order. I believe there is infinite order. for one thing, claiming there is some limit to reality requires Occam's razor be broken--there must be some explanation of that limit (it can't be time nor space, for they are only facets of order). Also, consider that every age's notion of "the limit to the universe" has crumbled--cave men their valley, ancient seafarers their edge of the Earth, then the canopy of the sky, then the solar system, then the galaxy, then a hypersphere 13 billions light years in radius, then a multiverse of branes, and what of the information in a black hole?

    "Spiritual" means having to do with growth of order and with infinite order.

    Notice my definition of "spiritual" differs from yours, in that it does not imply soul, ghosts, or other things we normally call "supernatural". This is because everything that exists (even if there are ghosts, souls, parallel realms of existence) is natural. Anything that can be described, must be described using the logic (language) of this universe. Otherwise it doesn't interact with us, and therefore doesn't exist.

    So now to your question (but slightly reworded), "What natural processes might make it possible to live beyond the grave."

    My answer:

    Man's body and brain do not live beyond the grave. However, infinite order does. Therefore the only way "you" can live beyond the grave is by becoming one with infinite order. Since Love is most certainly complex interaction leading to more interaction, you can grow into God by loving God and man.

    I will, however, let you in on a secret. Being "alive" is not necessarily simply being self-aware. There are modes of self-awareness that should never be called "life". For example, being a slave to your lusts should not be called "life". Being a slave to infinite order should most certainly be called "life". Rather simplistically put, both heaven and hell are having to live with yourself forever. Would you like to live forever with a humble, loving person, or with a selfish lusty person?
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2007
  7. Sep 29, 2007 #6
    Now for a more concrete example of why even self-awareness might continue after death:

    For an object to exist, it must interact with everything else in the universe. Otherwise we could claim an object exists which never interacts with the universe, and that is just plain silly. Therefore all objects continually interact with all other objects. This is Mach's principle. Its one thing that helps explain centrifugal force (why an object shows signs of spinning even though it apparently is not interacting with the universe), for example.

    Its as if all other objects agree that the object exists. This is a hand-waving way of explaining quantum tunneling--an object is allowed to stop existing in one place as long as it immediately starts existing someplace else. Now I am aware that some interpretations of tunneling refer to the fact that energy need not be conserved until the wavefunction collapses. I submit that that explanation is just as vague as mine, and that they are two different ways of saying the same thing.

    Also consider that potential energy requires two objects to define it (try giving an example of potential energy that includes none of the four known forces of nature). Likewise kinetic energy requires two objects in its description (the energy of a moving object is relative to some stationary massive object. You can't extract energy from a moving object without another object present).

    So in review, objects exist because their relationship with other objects exists. It is that interaction with other objects that defines the existence of an object. This interaction is a form of information, and that information is held not in the object, but in the universe, in general. (Conservation of information is the foundation of all conservation laws, including conservation of energy.)

    Neither energy nor information can be destroyed. So the question must be asked, what complexity of information is conserved? Is the complexity of a human's mind conserved?
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2007
  8. Sep 30, 2007 #7
    I think it possible that the material and spiritual are connect by the HUP--the uncertainty principal of Heisenberg. Think of concepts such as virtual particles--via HUP can they connect material and spiritual--if not, why not, how does math falsify my hypothesis ? At least something to think about, but I have no idea how this hypothesis could be run through filter of scientific method.
  9. Oct 1, 2007 #8
    The Bible says that we were created in the image of god. But think about it thats completely rediculous to think that we are little god look alikes. Like god has the form of a human. But if you change that statement around then I make sense of it. Rather than being created in the image of god. We are the image and we are made of god. God being the absolutely fundemental whatever that everthing is made of and is connected to. Because life exists and because I can think I give high credibility to the idea of this fundimental everything as being a single living immortal entity.

    Concousness is confusing though. Is our concousness the connection of our material bodies to the spiritual world? Maybe. I wonder though what is the lowest life fore which is connected in this way. Is it the brain which fosters a soul? Where is the boundry between mechanical interpretation and concousness? If god is the fundimental everything that everthing is made up of, does god have concousness? Is god concousness? Does god make decisions and carry out actions? I guess we will have to wait until death for the possability of knowing these mysteries.
  10. Oct 2, 2007 #9
    Consider the mirror. When broken, the pieces have all the qualities of the original. The analogy is that man is the piece longing to be home.

    Omnipotence and Immortality. Gained humanly via money and sex, respectively.
  11. Oct 2, 2007 #10
    The best that can be achieved on proof of life after life is a subjective experience of existence of awareness separate from the body. Such is a life changer. But does it have value for any other than self? Read all you want. You still gotta "roll your own."


    See above for training aids.
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