What is the Relationship Between Liminf and Limsup in Subset Sequences?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between liminf and limsup in the context of sequences of subsets. Participants explore definitions, examples, and attempts to prove the inclusion of liminf A_n in limsup A_n, with a focus on theoretical understanding and proof construction.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that liminf A_n is a subset of limsup A_n but struggles to find a sequence that demonstrates this without showing equality.
  • Another participant proposes a sequence where A_n is the empty set for even n and the whole space for odd n, suggesting this might illustrate the relationship.
  • A follow-up elaborates on the proposed sequence, calculating liminf and limsup and concluding they are equal, although this conclusion is questioned by others.
  • One participant expresses confusion regarding the definitions of liminf and limsup, suggesting that limsup includes points in an infinite number of sets while liminf includes points in all but a finite number of sets.
  • Another participant acknowledges a misunderstanding of the definitions after clarification.
  • A request for proof construction is made by a participant who identifies as inexperienced, indicating a desire for guidance without strictness.
  • A suggestion is made to consider the union and intersection of sets to demonstrate the relationship, indicating a method for approaching the proof.
  • A later reply expresses clarity following the discussion, indicating some level of understanding achieved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit a mix of agreement and confusion regarding the definitions and implications of liminf and limsup. While some participants propose examples and methods, there is no consensus on a definitive proof or resolution of the initial query.

Contextual Notes

Participants' understanding of liminf and limsup varies, with some relying on potentially incorrect definitions. The discussion includes attempts to clarify these definitions and their implications for specific sequences.

SpaceWalrus
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I have been told that given a sequence of subsets, liminf A_n\subseteq limsup A_n. I have spent some time trying to cook up such a sequence, but I can only ever show they are equal. Can someone point me in the right direction?
 
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If there is no restriction on An, then you could set up a sequence:
An = empty set for even n and An = whole space for odd n.
 
mathman said:
If there is no restriction on An, then you could set up a sequence:
An = empty set for even n and An = whole space for odd n.

I don't know if that one works. Note that

liminf A_n = A_1 \cup [A_1 \cap A_2] \cup [A_1 \cap A_2 \cap A_3] \dots = X \cup [X \cap \emptyset] \cup [X \cap \emptyset \cap X] \dots = X \cup \emptyset \cup \emptyset \dots = X,

while

limsupA_n = A_1 \cap [A_1 \cup A_2] \cap [A_1 \cup A_2 \cup A_3] \dots = X\cap [X \cup \emptyset] \cap [X \cup \emptyset \cup X] \dots = X \cap X \cap X \dots = X.

Hence they are equal.
 
I am a little confused by your definitions. My understanding is that limsup consists of all points which are in an infinite number of sets of the sequence, which would be the whole space. Liminf according to my understanding are those points which belong to all but a finite number of sets in the sequence, which would be none.

To use your expression I think you need to start with An (not A1) and then let n become infinite.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, I had the definition wrong. UGH! Thanks!
 
How can I prove that liminf of a sequence of events An is a subset of lim sup of An given n goes to infinity? I'm inexperienced in constructing proofs, so please do not be strict.
 
One way of getting there is to look at
supn = An∪An+1∪...
infn = An∩An+1∩...
supn contains infn

So let n become infinite and the relationship still holds.
 
Thank you, it's clear now.
 

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