What is the Uniqueness of Operators Acting on Bras in Quantum Mechanics?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter dEdt
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Operators
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the uniqueness of operators acting on bra vectors in quantum mechanics, particularly in the context of Dirac's notation and the correspondence between bras and kets. Participants explore theoretical implications, mathematical definitions, and the nuances of rigged Hilbert spaces.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the action of an operator on a bra vector can be defined such that it produces a new bra, following Dirac's principles.
  • Others argue that the uniqueness of this definition is questionable, particularly in the context of rigged Hilbert spaces, which complicate the correspondence between bras and kets.
  • A participant points out that the operator acting on a bra is not the same as the original operator but rather a dual operator that acts on linear functionals.
  • One participant provides an example involving the position and momentum operators to illustrate potential issues with Dirac's notation and the implications for rigged Hilbert spaces.
  • Another participant attempts to clarify the concept of uniqueness in the context of linear functionals and their representation in dual spaces.
  • There is a discussion about the need for careful interpretation of Dirac's notation and the implications of defining operators in different mathematical frameworks.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the uniqueness of operators acting on bras, with some supporting Dirac's assertion while others challenge its validity, particularly in the context of rigged Hilbert spaces. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these differing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the assumptions made about the correspondence between bras and kets, as well as the mathematical complexities introduced by rigged Hilbert spaces. The discussion also touches on the potential misinterpretations of Dirac's notation.

dEdt
Messages
286
Reaction score
2
In Quantum Mechanics, we have linear operators which can act on a ket to produce a new ket. However, we also allow the same operators to act on a bra vector to produce a new bra vector. That is, if [itex]\langle\phi|[/itex] is a bra and A is an operator, the action of A on [itex]\langle\phi|[/itex] is to produce a new bra denoted by [itex]\langle\phi|A[/itex]. Furthermore, we demand that
[tex]\left(\langle\phi|A\right)|\psi\rangle=\langle\phi|\left(A|\psi\rangle\right)[/tex]
for all kets [itex]|\psi\rangle[/itex].

This is how the action of an operator on a bra vector was (roughly) described in Dirac's Principles, as well as in other texts that I've seen. Next, Dirac asserts that this "uniquely determines" [itex]\langle\phi|A[/itex].

I was trying to prove, or at least justify this claim, but to no avail. Nor have I seen a proof anywhere else. Can anyone help?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
The uniqueness follows from the assumed one to one correspondence between bras and kets. A acting on a ket produces another ket that when acted on by a bra defines a linear function on that ket (the one the linear operator produces). But you can also consider it a linear function of the original ket before it was acted on by the operator so defines another bra which is defined as the bra that results from A acting on the bra.

The thing to realize however in Dirac's presentation is it untrue. It is true, that the Bras and Kets can be put into one to one correspondence for a Hilbert space but untrue for what is called a Rigged Hilbert Space. However it is only Rigged Hilbert spaces that allow the introduction of the Dirac Delta function used liberally by Dirac.

Eventually its probably a good idea to learn about Rigged Hilbert Spaces, and Ballentine gives a good introduction, but for now simply think of the Dirac Delta function as an actual function that for all practical purposes is a Dirac Delta function but strictly speaking it isn't. This is similar to what you see sometimes in applied math where dx is considered a quantity of first order smallness rather than what it actually is a differential form.

Thanks
Bill
 
dEdt said:
In Quantum Mechanics, we have linear operators which can act on a ket to produce a new ket. However, we also allow the same operators to act on a bra vector to produce a new bra vector [...]

This is technically not correct. It's NOT the same operator, but a shifted operator from the original Hilbert space into the topological dual of a dense subset of it. It's called the dual operator and acts linearly on linear functionals on the original Hilbert space producing other linear functionals.
 
... and for rigged Hilbert spaces you may run into big trouble ...

be careful with Dirac's notation: suppose you have the position operator x, the momentum operator p and momentum eigenstates |k>; now let's calculate

<k'|[x,p]|k> = <k'|xp-px|k> = <k'|xk-k'y|k> = (k-k') <k'|x-x|k> = 0

and

<k'|[x,p]|k> = <k'|i|k> = i δ(k'-k) ≠ 0

:frown:
 
bhobba said:
The uniqueness follows from the assumed one to one correspondence between bras and kets.

Sorry, but what does this mean?
 
dEdt said:
Sorry, but what does this mean?

Let me give this a shot! (I'm stealing pretty much all of this from Ballentine - even the notation - since I'm reading most of it myself at the moment. This is my way of practicing to see if I understand it.)

For a given n-dimensional vector space [itex]V[/itex], a linear functional [itex]F(\phi)[/itex] in the corresponding dual space [itex]V'[/itex] is defined by a unique vector [itex]f[/itex] by the inner product [itex]F(\phi) = (f, \phi)[/itex] with [itex]\phi[/itex] being any arbitrary vector in [itex]V[/itex]. For any set of orthonormal basis vectors [itex]\{ \phi_n \}[/itex] for [itex]V[/itex], we can uniquely write any vector in [itex]V[/itex] by expanding it in terms of its basis vectors: [itex]\psi = \sum_n x_n \phi_n[/itex], with [itex]F(\psi) = \sum_n x_n F(\phi_n)[/itex]. To show the uniqueness of any [itex]F(\psi)[/itex], we first construct a vector [itex]f = \sum_n [F(\phi_n)] ^* \phi_n[/itex]. When we take the inner product [itex](f, \psi)[/itex], we obtain [itex]\sum_n x_n F(\phi_n) = F(\psi)[/itex]. Thus, [itex]F(\psi)[/itex] is uniquely defined for each [itex]\psi[/itex].
 
dextercioby said:
This is technically not correct. It's NOT the same operator, but a shifted operator from the original Hilbert space into the topological dual of a dense subset of it. It's called the dual operator and acts linearly on linear functionals on the original Hilbert space producing other linear functionals.

Yea that's true - in what I said it defines a new operator acting on the dual but is in fact a different operator.

Thanks
Bill
 
dEdt said:
Sorry, but what does this mean?

The uniqueness of the operator thus defined acting on the space of duals (technically that's what bras are) - it would have been better for me to say the uniqueness and linearity of the operator thus defined which is the real issue ie a linear operator acting on Kets also defines a unique linear operator acting on Bra's - but your question was in terms of uniqueness.

Thanks
Bill
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
4K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 59 ·
2
Replies
59
Views
6K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
4K