Which interstellar "empire" do you like the most?

[Noisy Rhysling]

Despite its flaws I find the empire in The Mote in God's Eye timeline to be very effective. Doesn't get too much in the way, but is ruthless about maintaining order. "Istvan Dies", for example, tells the story of a planet that is slagged to bedrock when it rebels and won't surrender. Uneconomical to transport food between the planets.

Would the other end of that spectrum be commercial empires with private military? Or would it be each planet sovereign and no over-all governing structure?

 

[phyzguy]

Poul Anderson's Polesotechnic League would fit under your idea of commercial empires with private military. Look up "Trader to the Stars" or "Satan's World".

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Poul Anderson's Polesotechnic League would fit under your idea of commercial empires with private military. Look up "Trader to the Stars" or "Satan's World".

Read them both, about 1/2 century ago.

 

[ISamson]

The Galactic Empire, whose leaders are Darth Sidious and Lord Vader.:)

 

[GTOM]

Imperium of Man W40K is great :)

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Reading up on the Humanx Amalgamation right now. Fun stuff.

 

[XZ923]

The Galactic Empire, whose leaders are Darth Sidious and Lord Vader.:)

I agree the Star Wars Galactic Empire, but under Thrawn's leadership rather than those two totalitarian nutcases. If it weren't for Rukh, Thrawn's campaign probably would have been successful, the Empire and New Republic could have been united, they would have been ready for the Vong invasion, and trillions of sentient beings wouldn't have died.

I'm also a big fan of the Romulan Empire. Sneaky but strong, intelligent and cunning while also fierce and ruthless. "Balance of Terror" is IMO the greatest Star Trek episode of all-time of any of its iterations.

 

[DennisN]

I'm a fan of the Foundation trilogy, so I like the Mule's brief empire, but also first and second foundation (if they count as empires, I don't remember).

On the topic:

 

[stefan r]

Vernor Vinge's writes about the Qeng Ho.

I just finished " a deepness in the sky". was a great book.

 

[snorkack]

I'm a fan of the Foundation trilogy, so I like the Mule's brief empire, but also first and second foundation (if they count as empires, I don't remember).

How about the original Galactic Empire itself?

 

[Buzz Bloom]

My favorite is the extended Foundation series for what I found to be a mostly very logical presentation of a galactic empre's collapse.

 

[snorkack]

My favorite is the extended Foundation series for what I found to be a mostly very logical presentation of a galactic empre's collapse.

Which ones specifically?
I see pretty big holes in it.
As well as the original series, though this is less detailed.

 

[Buzz Bloom]

Which ones specifically?
I see pretty big holes in it.
As well as the original series, though this is less detailed.

Hi snorkack:

By the "extended Foundation series" i mean:

• 2.1 Prelude to Foundation
• 2.2 Forward the Foundation
• 2.3 Foundation
• 2.4 Foundation and Empire
• 2.5 Second Foundation
• 2.6 Foundation's Edge
• 2.7 Foundation and Earth

This list is from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_series .​

Can you be specific about the holes you see, or at least some examples?

When you say "this is less detained". what do you mean by "this"?

Regards,
Buzz

 

[snorkack]

Can you be specific about the holes you see, or at least some examples?

When you say "this is less detained". what do you mean by "this"?

Regards,
Buzz

Original series is less detailed.
Figuring out how the Empire operated in the first place.
Because, inter alia, Sci Fi Writers Have No Sense Of Scale.
In Foundation, we see Lord Chancellor as the only representative of Empire traveling to Terminus.
Well, few details then. But in Bridle and Saddle, we get a bit more:

How the mighty had fallen! Kingdoms! They were prefects in the old days, all part of the same province, which in turn had been part of a sector, which in turn had been part of a quadrant, which in turn had been part of the allembracing Galactic Empire. And now that the Empire had lost control over the farther reaches of the Galaxy, these little splinter groups of planets became kingdoms with comic-opera kings and nobles, and petty, meaningless wars, and a life that went on pathetically among the ruins.

Lord Chancellor of Empire not wanting to bother suppressing Anacreon´s rebellion is plausibly explained - he was going to return to Trantor, little gain from poor Periphery.
But what were the governors of Province, Sector and Quadrant thinking? With the Periphery abandoned by Empire, their jobs would vanish - unless it was they themselves who became Kings, and that would also have involved suppressing Anacreon´s rebellion.

Perhaps Province, Sector and Quadrant were mere groupings on a map, and the actual administrative subordination was Prefect directly to Trantor?
Plausible, until...
We get the size of that "little splinter group of planets" still in Bridle and Saddle:

The trip left him with an oppressive realization of the vastness of the kingdom. It was a little splinter, an insignificant fly speck compared to the inconceivable reaches of the Galactic Empire of which it had once formed so distinguished a part; but to one whose habits of thought had been built around a single planet, and a sparsely settled one at that, Anacreon's size in area and population was staggering.

Following closely the boundaries of the old Prefect of Anacreon, it embraced twenty-five stellar systems, six of which included more than one inhabited world. The population of nineteen billion, though still far less than it had been in the Empire's heyday was rising rapidly with the increasing scientific development fostered by the Foundation.

How did Trantor run the inconceivable reaches without intermediate level governors?

It´s finally in Dead Hand that these inconceivable reaches are specified:

there circled the huge Imperial planet, Trantor. But it was more than a planet; it was the living pulse beat of an Empire of twenty million stellar systems.

Siwenna, of 20 planets, was one of roughly a million administrative units on its level.
How was Bel Riose going to get the ear of Emperor?
Worse, how was Bel Riose going to get the ear of Parliament? If it was a known politically sensitive matter to open any business with Parliament?

A plausible Empire should have decided the matter on the level of some intermediate governor. And decided to forbid Bel Riose to fight. Cleon and Brodrig discussed enough reasons - it is a plothole that they permitted Bel Riose to fight in the first place.

 

[Buzz Bloom]

Hi @snorkack:

Thanks for your post. I appreciate the detail and the quotes. It will take me a while to reply with reasonable comments, and I hope to do so in a few days,

Regards,
Buzz

 

[Buzz Bloom]

Hi snorkack:

There is a lot to discuss, and I can't do all of it in this post.

Original series is less detailed.

Sorry for my typo. I still do not understand this quote. By the original series I assume you mean the original trilogy. I assume in this quote you are the amount of detail to the later written parts of the series, both sequels and prequels. In what way is it "less detailed"?

Figuring out how the Empire operated in the first place.

I am guessing that this refers to a "hole", but I am not getting what this hole is. Would you please explain in more detail?

Because, inter alia, Sci Fi Writers Have No Sense Of Scale.

This seems like a general criticism of Sci Fi. Can you give some specific examples of this lack of sense of scale?

In Foundation, we see Lord Chancellor as the only representative of Empire traveling to Terminus

I do not have any of the books immediately available to look at, and I do not remember the details of the scenes with the Lord Chancellor. I found

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Foundation_series_characters​

but the Lord Chancellor was not listed there. What exactly is the "hole" regarding the Lord Chancellor? Is it simply that he was the only representative of Trantor who visited Terminus? If so, why would you expect there to be others?

How did Trantor run the inconceivable reaches without intermediate level governors?

Are you referring to a lack of detail in the story about the hierarchical structure of the empire being a serious "hole"?

How was Bel Riose going to get the ear of Emperor?

In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bel_Riose it says

He was the last strong General of the Galactic Empire, Commander of the legendary Twentieth Fleet, who eventually came to be known as "the Last of the Imperials", and earned this title well. His tactical genius was compared with that of Admiral Peurifoy, and his skill at handling men to be far greater. A man of great military genius, he was also brave, competent, good looking, neither too young nor too old, a taker of calculated risks, and good to his men—in short, he was a popular general.​

This, the nature of Bel Riose's reputation, seems to me to be a good reason why the Emperor would have a conversation with him.

it is a plothole that they permitted Bel Riose to fight in the first place.

I think I get why you see this as a "hole", but I disagree. I confess I do not remember the details, but I do remember being satisfied that it was reasonable for Bel Riose to be sent.

Regards,
Buzz

 

[snorkack]

Sorry for my typo. I still do not understand this quote. By the original series I assume you mean the original trilogy. I assume in this quote you are the amount of detail to the later written parts of the series, both sequels and prequels. In what way is it "less detailed"?

In that, for example, "Psychohistorians" and "Prelude to Foundation" add a lot of detail about Trantor compared to the original brief visit in "Dead Hand".

I am guessing that this refers to a "hole", but I am not getting what this hole is. Would you please explain in more detail?

Trying to fill in the blanks on how exactly the Empire operated in the first place reveals that it´s hard to fit with all published constraints.

This seems like a general criticism of Sci Fi. Can you give some specific examples of this lack of sense of scale?

Yes.
Lack of sense of scale between planet and whole interstellar setting: Foundation and several others interstellar empires, like Star Wars and Warhammer. Care for details?
Lack of sense of scale for a planet: Also common, and plenty of examples. Including, again, Foundation.
To recall an above quote:

The trip left him with an oppressive realization of the vastness of the kingdom. It was a little splinter, an insignificant fly speck compared to the inconceivable reaches of the Galactic Empire of which it had once formed so distinguished a part; but to one whose habits of thought had been built around a single planet, and a sparsely settled one at that, Anacreon's size in area and population was staggering.

Following closely the boundaries of the old Prefect of Anacreon, it embraced twenty-five stellar systems, six of which included more than one inhabited world. The population of nineteen billion, though still far less than it had been in the Empire's heyday was rising rapidly with the increasing scientific development fostered by the Foundation.

The population of Terminus is previously specified as 1 million. Plausibly. But the relationship between the size of Terminus and Anacreon has implications Asimov misses.

I do not have any of the books immediately available to look at, and I do not remember the details of the scenes with the Lord Chancellor. I found

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Foundation_series_characters​

but the Lord Chancellor was not listed there.

Lord Dorwin.

What exactly is the "hole" regarding the Lord Chancellor? Is it simply that he was the only representative of Trantor who visited Terminus? If so, why would you expect there to be others?Are you referring to a lack of detail in the story about the hierarchical structure of the empire being a serious "hole"?

Yes.
It is common for hierarchical organizations to have more than optimal number of first level administrative divisions. In order to give more interest groups the independence of imperial immediacy and not make individual governors too powerful, many central governments are willing to sacrifice some efficiency.
But this is limited at a few hundreds. Empire with an expected region of a million prefectures should have had intermediate level governors. And we should have heard of their acts sometimes.

 

[Buzz Bloom]

Hi @snorkack:

I much appreciate this discussion with you. You are reminding me of a lot of detail that I have forgotten, or remember differently than you describe it. I have been trying to refresh my memory with material I can find on Wikipedia, but it fails to meet my needs. I get that most of your posts criticize the trilogy, and in order to understand your criticisms I am going to have to get a copy of the trilogy as a reference. I am hopeful i will be able to continue this discussion in a week or so.

Regards,
Buzz

 

[GTOM]

Yes.
Lack of sense of scale between planet and whole interstellar setting: Foundation and several others interstellar empires, like Star Wars and Warhammer. Care for details?
It is common for hierarchical organizations to have more than optimal number of first level administrative divisions. In order to give more interest groups the independence of imperial immediacy and not make individual governors too powerful, many central governments are willing to sacrifice some efficiency.
But this is limited at a few hundreds. Empire with an expected region of a million prefectures should have had intermediate level governors. And we should have heard of their acts sometimes.

I would care about the details.
Star Wars sure isn't hard SF, but the emperor didnt rule alone, he had lots of sector governors (big moffs if i remember correctly) like Tarkin.
In W40k, we don't see an excellently working empire, fear of xenos and chaos are the only things keep it in one piece.

 

[snorkack]

I would care about the details.

An example about another section of Sci Fi Writers Have No Sense Of Scale. The great disturbance of Force in the galaxy far, far away:
http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/87.html

Now, the Kingdom of Anacreon is more plausible, because more familiar scale. I can deduce plausible details, so long as Asimov does not add extra details to contradict everything.

The number of planets in Kingdom of Anacreon is almost given as 32. This gives an average population of a planet at 600 millions. On a smallish side, but not grossly so. Earth had 600 million people around 1600.

Governing a region of 600 million people from outside is not so different as to be hard to imagine either. British India had something like 300 million people under British administration by Partition, subject to one Viceroy. Since Anacreon was a Prefecture before rebellion, and Anselm haut Rodric was a Subprefect of Pluema, the most likely meaning of that job description is a governor of a planet named Pluema. Roughly a social equal of a Viceroy of India, then.
It´s the part of hierarchy above the Prefect of Anacreon that gets conspicuous for its absence when expected.

Star Wars sure isn't hard SF, but the emperor didnt rule alone, he had lots of sector governors (big moffs if i remember correctly) like Tarkin.

Do we hear the number of sectors and moffs?