Should public funds be used for religious displays in government buildings?

[wolram]

In 2014, deaths among non-Hispanic whites exceeded births in more states than at any time in U.S. history. Seventeen states, home to 121 million residents or roughly 38 percent of the U.S. population, had more deaths than births among non-Hispanic whites (hereafter referred to as whites) in 2014, compared to just four in 2004. When births fail to keep pace with deaths, a region is said to have a “natural decrease” in population, which can only be offset by migration gains. In twelve of the seventeen states with white natural decreases, the white population diminished overall between 2013 and 2014.

https://carsey.unh.edu/publication/white-deaths

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Signs of a more divisive future?

 

[SW VandeCarr]

Birth rates in the US have a clear inverse relationship to income.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-family-income-in-the-us/

This is seen in other prosperous countries such as Japan and Germany. Without immigration, birth rates for these countries would be below replacement.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=german+fertility+rate

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Signs of a more diverse future?

FTFY ;)

 

[Guy Madison]

One solution would be less cable television?

 

[Kevin McHugh]

One way to do away with national sovereignty.

 

[rootone]

Sorry to be annoying. but what qualifies somebody as being 'White?:
I know an Irish women who looks similar to a Portuguese one.

 

[Student100]

Sorry to be annoying. but what qualifies somebody as being 'White?:
I know an Irish women who looks similar to a Portuguese one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race

Birth rates in the US have a clear inverse relationship to income.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-family-income-in-the-us/

This is seen in other prosperous countries such as Japan and Germany. Without immigration, birth rates for these countries would be below replacement.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=german+fertility+rate

It's a pretty common trend around the world if this is to be believed: https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth/ (not 100% sure on the validity of the source, so feel free to delete if bad)

Global population increase has been steady declining since peaking in the 60's, and it's a good thing. The planet already has more people than it can reasonably support on it.

Immigration also seems to be a short term fix for aging populations: http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/29/immigrants-lead-plunge-in-u-s-birth-rate/

After a few generations immigrant birthrates seem to mirror the native born population, if global population growth continues to decrease, eventually you're going to run out of immigrants (so to speak). Not to mention what could happen to the country politically and economically if the native born population is completely displaced, since multiculturalism instead of integration is practiced in the west. It's hard to say what a minority majority USA might look like.

 

[Kevin McHugh]

Not to mention what could happen to the country politically and economically if the native born population is completely displaced, since multiculturalism instead of integration is practiced in the west. It's hard to say what a minority majority USA might look like.

Look at the stats from the census bureau. This country is c.a. 76% white. That leaves only 24% for Hispanic, Black, Asian, Native American, Middle Eastern and mixed race. The liberal press would have you believe we are multicultural, but the stats say otherwise. And when immigrants first came to the USA, they practiced integration. This has only changed in my lifetime with the liberal left agenda gaining traction in America. I think it is wonderful that they continue to practice customs and traditions from their home countries. It only enriches us. But I can't support giving up my cultural beliefs and traditions because they might not be inclusive of the minority. I also resent immigrant minorities trying to impose their value system on us. If our value system is not to your liking, then stay in your own country.

 

[Guy Madison]

Look at the stats from the census bureau. This country is c.a. 76% white. That leaves only 24% for Hispanic, Black, Asian, Native American, Middle Eastern and mixed race. The liberal press would have you believe we are multicultural, but the stats say otherwise. And when immigrants first came to the USA, they practiced integration. This has only changed in my lifetime with the liberal left agenda gaining traction in America. I think it is wonderful that they continue to practice customs and traditions from their home countries. It only enriches us. But I can't support giving up my cultural beliefs and traditions because they might not be inclusive of the minority. I also resent immigrant minorities trying to impose their value system on us. If our value system is not to your liking, then stay in your own country.

Thank you for being honest, the political correctness factor in the US has gotten out of hand.

I could rant forever on this subject but this isn't the place for it.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Look at the stats from the census bureau. This country is c.a. 76% white. That leaves only 24% for Hispanic, Black, Asian, Native American, Middle Eastern and mixed race. The liberal press would have you believe we are multicultural, but the stats say otherwise. And when immigrants first came to the USA, they practiced integration. This has only changed in my lifetime with the liberal left agenda gaining traction in America. I think it is wonderful that they continue to practice customs and traditions from their home countries. It only enriches us. But I can't support giving up my cultural beliefs and traditions because they might not be inclusive of the minority. I also resent immigrant minorities trying to impose their value system on us. If our value system is not to your liking, then stay in your own country.

But as an American, isn't part of your cultural beliefs and traditions is to be inclusive of all peoples (or shouldn't it)? Because that is what my American father taught me growing up about what being an American meant for him. For your note, I grew up in Canada, which has also become increasingly diverse, and which has embraced multiculturalism without any of the hand-wringing that I've seen in other countries. And frankly, I don't see how multiculturalism and integration can't co-exist (again, Canada is an example where multiculturalism and integration works reasonably well -- not perfect, but quite well).

Also you claim that you resent immigrant minorities imposing their value systems on you. As an American, can you point to a specific example of that happening to you directly?

 

[StatGuy2000]

After a few generations immigrant birthrates seem to mirror the native born population, if global population growth continues to decrease, eventually you're going to run out of immigrants (so to speak). Not to mention what could happen to the country politically and economically if the native born population is completely displaced, since multiculturalism instead of integration is practiced in the west. It's hard to say what a minority majority USA might look like.

Again, I don't see how multiculturalism and integration need to be in opposition to each other -- the two can co-exist within the same country. I point to Canada as an example where immigrant communities successfully integrate into society within the framework of multiculturalism (we certainly have our problems, but by and large our society functions quite well).

As for what a minority majority USA might look like, consider Hawaii or New Mexico -- both of these states are minority majority states, and have been for decades, and as far as I know, those places seem to be functioning all right (I believe California will become a minority majority state within less than a generation if it hasn't reached it yet).

 

[Kevin McHugh]

But as an American, isn't part of your cultural beliefs and traditions is to be inclusive of all peoples (or shouldn't it)? Because that is what my American father taught me growing up about what being an American meant for him. For your note, I grew up in Canada, which has also become increasingly diverse, and which has embraced multiculturalism without any of the hand-wringing that I've seen in other countries. And frankly, I don't see how multiculturalism and integration can't co-exist (again, Canada is an example where multiculturalism and integration works reasonably well -- not perfect, but quite well).

Also you claim that you resent immigrant minorities imposing their value systems on you. As an American, can you point to a specific example of that happening to you directly?

Sure, I like to see mangers, crosses or any religious display in public around Christmas. I enjoy hearing choirs singing about the birth of Jesus. I like to see crosses on memorials. However, I can no longer appreciate these because it might offend a Muslim, a Jew or an atheist. Why does everybody have such thin skin? Or is it just the liberal left? Do Muslims or Jews really get offended when we practice our faith? I certainly don't get offended when Muslims pray to Mecca five times a day. I am not offended listening to the Koran being sung. I am not bothered by Jewish people celebrating Hanuka (sp) or Yom Kippur. I love listening to Hindus chanting mantra.

I certainly don't want our judges considering Sharia or international law in local adjudications. I don't want ME immigrants causing the problems here they are causing in Europe.

Besides, I already stated that I believe their customs and traditions enrich us. But our culture is basically white Christian, so like I said, I resent not being able to express my values in public.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Canada
PS: You're multicultural Canada is 86% Caucasian.

 

[TurtleMeister]

I wonder if some people confuse the American metaphor "melting pot" with multiculturalism. There is a very important difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism

Continuous mass immigration was a feature of the United States economy and society since the first half of the 19th century.[147] The absorption of the stream of immigrants became, in itself, a prominent feature of America's national myth. The idea of the melting pot is a metaphor that implies that all the immigrant cultures are mixed and amalgamated without state intervention.[148] The melting pot theory implied that each individual immigrant, and each group of immigrants, assimilated into American society at their own pace. This is different than multiculturalism as defined above, which does not include complete assimilation and integration.

I believe that true multiculturalism, which seems to be more and more embraced by the liberal left, would be bad for America. And I think history would back me up on that belief.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism

Dick Lamm, former three-term Democratic governor of the US state of Colorado, wrote in his essay "I have a plan to destroy America":

"Diverse peoples worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other—that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent."

 

[StatGuy2000]

Sure, I like to see mangers, crosses or any religious display in public around Christmas. I enjoy hearing choirs singing about the birth of Jesus. I like to see crosses on memorials. However, I can no longer appreciate these because it might offend a Muslim, a Jew or an atheist. Why does everybody have such thin skin? Or is it just the liberal left? Do Muslims or Jews really get offended when we practice our faith? I certainly don't get offended when Muslims pray to Mecca five times a day. I am not offended listening to the Koran being sung. I am not bothered by Jewish people celebrating Hanuka (sp) or Yom Kippur. I love listening to Hindus chanting mantra.

I certainly don't want our judges considering Sharia or international law in local adjudications. I don't want ME immigrants causing the problems here they are causing in Europe.

Besides, I already stated that I believe their customs and traditions enrich us. But our culture is basically white Christian, so like I said, I resent not being able to express my values in public.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Canada
PS: You're multicultural Canada is 86% Caucasian.

First of all, has anyone seriously suggested that non-Christian immigrants in the US are somehow offended when you and other American Christians practice their faith in private? What they (and atheists/agnostics/non-theists, such as myself) might be offended by is if American Christians try to impose their religious values on them. In case you seem to have forgotten, the United States was founded on the principle of the strict separation of church and state, by which religion is a part of the private sphere and not to be mixed to the political realm.

Second, has anyone (outside of the right-wing propagandists on Fox News) ever seriously suggested that judges would consider Sharia (or any religious law) on legal adjudications? That is just beyond absurd! (Note that I am not a legal expert, but my understanding is that international law only serves as an advisory function on domestic law, and does not supersede the US Constitution).

As far as your response about Canada, note the following:

1. Yes, Canada is 86% Caucasian, but unlike the US and the "melting pot" not all Caucasians practice the same culture (e.g. people of British descent do not practice the same culture as French Canadians).

2. The proportion of non-Caucasians in Canada is growing.

3. I live in Toronto, where the demographics is considerably different from the national average, and the Caucasian population is 50.2%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto#Demographics

As an aside, I am of multiracial heritage, so therefore you could say that I represent a growing proportion of the population of Canada and the US (and therefore the future of both countries).

 

[StatGuy2000]

I wonder if some people confuse the American metaphor "melting pot" with multiculturalism. There is a very important difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MulticulturalismI believe that true multiculturalism, which seems to be more and more embraced by the liberal left, would be bad for America. And I think history would back me up on that belief.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism

Where I take issue with both your characterization and the Wiki article above is that somehow multiculturalism necessarily lies in opposition to integration. Traditionally the "melting pot" theory implied that each immigrant, and each group of immigrants, assimilated into American society at their own pace. Even in a cultural framework of multiculturalism, there is less emphasis on assimilation, but integration into the host society can and do take place. In Canada, the model has been for immigrant groups to not so much assimilate into Canadian society but integrate into Canadian society without necessarily giving up the cultural practices of the original immigrant culture.

That being said, for all the talk of the US being a "melting pot", it is not hard to find communities of 2nd or 3rd generation Americans of immigrant backgrounds who still preserve aspects of the original immigrant culture to varying degrees (e.g. Italian Americans in the Little Italy neighbourhoods in New York), or those groups who have resisted assimilation into the dominant American culture (e.g. the Amish, the Hutterites, the Hassidic Jews, Cajuns, Pueblo Native Americans, etc.).

 

[TurtleMeister]

I agree, it doesn't have to be one or the other. There can be varying degrees. That doesn't change the differences between the two. Multiculturalism is less accommodating to integration than is the "melting pot". By the way, there is also a metaphor for multiculturalism. It's called the "salad bowl". The "salad bowl" celebrates diversity whereas the "melting pot" celebrates unity.

 

[OCR]

By the way, there is also a metaphor...

More than one I believe ....

 

[Kevin McHugh]

First of all, has anyone seriously suggested that non-Christian immigrants in the US are somehow offended when you and other American Christians practice their faith in private? What they (and atheists/agnostics/non-theists, such as myself) might be offended by is if American Christians try to impose their religious values on them. In case you seem to have forgotten, the United States was founded on the principle of the strict separation of church and state, by which religion is a part of the private sphere and not to be mixed to the political realm.

Second, has anyone (outside of the right-wing propagandists on Fox News) ever seriously suggested that judges would consider Sharia (or any religious law) on legal adjudications? That is just beyond absurd! (Note that I am not a legal expert, but my understanding is that international law only serves as an advisory function on domestic law, and does not supersede the US Constitution).

Why can't Christians practice their faith in public? Why does it have to be private? Or would that offend your atheist sensibilities? I hardly see how a cross on a memorial is forcing religion anybody. And if you think our FF were strict about church and state, read the FF in their own words. The separation is only meant to prevent state sponsored religion (Like the Church of England). It does not mean freedom from religion, it is freedom of religion.

Communities such as Dearborne, MI have said they would want their local courts to consider Sharia. So it's not just Fox News.

This thread is going to get locked, I'm out.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I've never seen any prominent member of the atheist community (or any other) get offended by public displays of faith*, rather it's a question of whether or not public funds should be spent on displays for one religion, especially in public buildings. Secularism doesn't mean you can't be Christian, it means that all religions are equally kept at arms length from government.

*Notable exception: displays of faith motivated hate like the Westboro baptists.

 

[Bandersnatch]

Communities such as Dearborne, MI have said they would want their local courts to consider Sharia. So it's not just Fox News.

Quick googling shows rather clearly that it's a false story stemming from a satirical article.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national...earborn-michigan-not-under-sharia-law/354555/

 

[Kevin McHugh]

I never implied Dearborne was under Sharia law, only that polling says they would welcome it.

 

[Kevin McHugh]

I've never seen any prominent member of the atheist community (or any other) get offended by public displays of faith*, rather it's a question of whether or not public funds should be spent on displays for one religion, especially in public buildings. Secularism doesn't mean you can't be Christian, it means that all religions are equally kept at arms length from government.

*Notable exception: displays of faith motivated hate like the Westboro baptists.

I'm pretty sure they offend everybody.

I agree with you, public dollars should not be spent on religious displays.