Who Discovered America Besides Columbus and the Vikings?

[quantumcarl]

Those Clovis spearheads are impressive, especially considering how they were made. They seem to have been made for big animals like mastodons, etc. Maybe there was no need for them once the megafauna were gone.

The idea that Neandertals were simply carrion eaters seems far-fetched to me. I can't imagine them surviving just on what they could find. It seems that would be a waste of their muscle power.

Two of the foundation blocks of the Europe-to-Americas theory are the absence of Clovis points or Clovis-like points in eastern Asia, and the European X lineage in some American Indians. Your first link mentions that Clovis points have recently been found in Asia, and now it seems the X lineage has been found in Asia:

This just points out that there isn't enough evidence yet. The quote at the end of http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1511/is_2_20/ai_53631758/pg_4" pretty much sums it up:

The last quote is so true. Best story gets the Anthropological Oscar.

But... I'm remembering some of the info from my excavations with the universities here in the North West.

F. Boaz was the first to proport that the Bering Land Bridge was the most likely method of reaching NorthAmerica. This was supported by my mentor, Dr. Charles Borden a few years later. So all the work I did, for my 1st 6 years, was focused on supporting these two Archaeologist's theories.

What I was taught by our findings was that at 13,000 years, on the NWest Coast and NNW coast there only existed the technology to produce cobble tools... and sometimes what is known as a "spalding" tool. The Cobble tool is a river stone that's been flaked on one side. A spalding tool is the result of whacking a river cobble against a bigger rock which gives you a thin flake which is immediately available for skinning fish.

When Borden et al found the Cobble tools at a geologically confirmed depth and date of about 13,000 bp he was quite happy. He compared them to Neandertal tools of much earlier and much further away... in Europe and the Middle east. But this didn't phase his faith in the Bering Land Bridge.

The site we were working was unique in that it had 3 terraces cut out by a large river. The top terrace... being the oldest. That's where the cobble tools were found. The next terrace down was where we found an intermediate type of tool technology... bi-faced points but these were not as refined as the Clovis. These would still be in the range of the one's found and dated at 17,000 ybp in Virginia... that were not Clovis.. but came BEFORE.

However, on the NWCoast... far from the ECoast the tools that match the 17,000 Richmond Virginia type are only about 6000 to 9000 years bp.

The the latest terrace held extremely high tech stone tools made from quartz and obsidian. These are called micro-blades and other types that are very refined and come from a date at around 4000 to 2000 years bp.

My story, so far, would suggest that the influences of European tool technology were felt on the East Coast first... and were not transferred until much later... to the west coast.

There is no evidence that Clovis type technology came across the Bering Bridge, yet.

The claim that the "Native American" has been here for ever is probably partially true. There are human habitation sites in North America that date back to 25,000 ybp. Here's a Canadian example:

Bluefish Caves in the Yukon, where Jacques Cinq-Mars of
the Archaeological Survey of Canada has found evidence of
episodic human activity between 25,000 and 10,000 years ago. One
caribou bone, which excavators believe was cut and shaped to form
a tool for butchering, has a radiocarbon date of 24,800 years; a
mammoth leg bone, from which flakes were chipped, is dated at
23,500 years. "We're confident that people were at Bluefish
Caves by about 25,000 years ago," says archeologist Richard
Morlan of the Canadian Museum of Civilization.

From a cool article "The First Americans" by Sharon Begley
in "Newsweek" (Special Issue, Fall/Winter 1991, pp. 15-20):

http://muweb.millersville.edu/~columbus/data/art/BEGLEY01.ART

 

[quantumcarl]

Oops, here's the first guy to postulate the idea of Beringia being a land bridge... he did so 400 years ago...

About 400 years ago, responding to his era's need to explain the Aboriginal presence in the New World, José de Acosta postulated what would become known as the Bering Strait, i.e., a place where the relative proximity of Asia and America would have allowed populations to move between the two continents.

From http://www.civilization.ca/academ/articles/cinq1_1e.html

This site also has more about the Bluefish Caves.

Here's more about Franz Boaz

Franz Boas (1858-1942)

Franz Boas is called the "father of modern anthropology" for his pioneering work on race, culture and language. Boas trained the first generation of American anthropologists including Ruth Benedict, Alfred L. Kroeber, Robert Lowie, Margaret Mead, and Edward Sapir. Boas (organized) designed the Jesup Expedition as an ambitious comprehensive project on the cultures and history of the North Pacific region focused on the question of human migration from Asia across the Bering Strait. Between 1897 and 1903 Boas secured funding, fielded research teams, and over the next three decades, edited and supervised Expedition publications in addition to his other writing.

From: http://drms.amnh.org/jesup/bio_notes/combined.html

And more about Dr. C. Borden:

Charles E. Borden fonds. - 1905-1978.
8.63 m of textual records and other materials.

Charles E. Borden, the grandfather of British Columbia archaeology, was born in New York City on May 15, 1905. Shortly thereafter he accompanied his widowed mother to her family home in Germany, where he was raised. At the age of 22, having accidentally discovered that he was an American citizen, Borden returned to the United States.

Throughout the balance of his career, from 1949 to 1978, Borden established a highly respected and internationally visible presence in archaeology as an instructor, an author, an editor, a researcher and a spokesman for his chosen discipline. His publications reflect his principal interest in archaeology, cultural-historical synthesis. He developed the Uniform Site Designation Scheme which has been adopted in most of Canada. In addition to his academic contributions to archaeology, Borden also devoted considerable energy to securing provincial legislation to protect archaeological sites. He was responsible, in conjunction with Wilson Duff, for the passage in British Columbia of the 1960 Archaeological and Historical Sites Protection Act and the creation of the Archaeological sites Advisory Board.

I can tell you this guy was a wild dude too, even toward the end of his life. Excavations are a good time all around. When you're not digging and recording you're swimming and eating in the wild. Quite often we'd be treated to visits from the area nation's chief or elders and they'd show us how they BBQ salmon or tell us 9000 yo stories about the area. The methods of BBQing are as old as time itself. And extremely tastey!

 

[Tojen]

I just read your first post, I'll get to the second after. Sorry, not much time.

I agree, the apparent east-to-west spread of Clovis technology does suggest it started in the east which would also agree with the work you've done. Sounds like you had a great site to work on with the different levels of technology. (I have no experience whatsoever; I'm just an old fart trying to satisfy his curiosity ).

I found some more information on the X lineage in Siberia (score another one for Wikipedia):

...haplogroup X individuals were discovered in Altaia in South Siberia. However, more detailed examination has shown that the Altaian sequences are all almost identical, suggesting that they arrived in the area probably from the South Caucasus more recently than 5000 BC. On the other hand, the North American haplogroup X DNA (now called subgroup X2a) is as different from any of the old world X2 lineages as they are from each other. This suggests that the ancestors of the X2a population presumably separated very early from all of the other X2 lineages, but gives little clue as yet to the true path of their migration from the Near East to North America.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)

The plot thickens...

 

[quantumcarl]

I just read your first post, I'll get to the second after. Sorry, not much time.

I agree, the apparent east-to-west spread of Clovis technology does suggest it started in the east which would also agree with the work you've done. Sounds like you had a great site to work on with the different levels of technology. (I have no experience whatsoever; I'm just an old fart trying to satisfy his curiosity ).

I found some more information on the X lineage in Siberia (score another one for Wikipedia):

...haplogroup X individuals were discovered in Altaia in South Siberia. However, more detailed examination has shown that the Altaian sequences are all almost identical, suggesting that they arrived in the area probably from the South Caucasus more recently than 5000 BC. On the other hand, the North American haplogroup X DNA (now called subgroup X2a) is as different from any of the old world X2 lineages as they are from each other. This suggests that the ancestors of the X2a population presumably separated very early from all of the other X2 lineages, but gives little clue as yet to the true path of their migration from the Near East to North America.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)

The plot thickens...

Actually, the thought plickens.

One thing genetic research will find is that every gene from everywhere in the world is going to be found everywhere else in the world. There have been so many migrations from here to there and back again. Granted, the information on genetics out of Africa is intriguing... boiling everyones genetics down to one woman with a mution, some million years ago, in Africa is a fascinating feat. And its so uncomplicated is impossible to believe. I hope the research continues on every level... in the dirt, in the bloodlines, and the evidence from trade routes.

There is one more bit of support for the Egyptians having migrated and integrated with the Hopi in America. The Hopi constructed canals and flood plains that are identical to the Egyptian agricultural method of irrigation and land re-claimation.

This site has some examples:

http://www.cpluhna.nau.edu/Change/waterdevelopment2.htm

And here is the Egyptian way of building canals for irrigation and flood control:

http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/timelines/topics/agriculture.htm

I don't know if these methods would spring to mind just naturally for the Hopi or if they were taught these methods so they could grow harvest and feed their lazy overseers, the New American Egyptians of 3600 ybp.!

 

[Tojen]

I hadn't heard of Jose de Acosta before, but sounds like quite a scholar. He makes me feel like a bump on a log:

José de Acosta, S.J. (Spanish: 1540-1600) is called the Pliny of the New World because of his book Natural and Moral History of the Indies which provided the first detailed description of the geography and culture of Latin America, Aztec history and - of all things - the uses of coca. For his work on altitude sickness in the Andes, he is listed as one of the pioneers of modern aeronautical medicine. José was far ahead of his time in the selection and description of his observations. Not satisfied, however, with mere descriptions, he tried to explain causes. José was one of the earliest geophysicists, having been among the first to observe, record and analyze earthquakes, volcanoes, tides, currents, magnetic declinations and meteorological phenomena...he offered the earliest scientific explanation of the tropical trade winds. José traveled extensively through Peru, Bolivia, Chile and Mexico; he was the first European to systematize the geography of the New World.

Since José Acosta gave the first detailed description of the Mexican ideograms he can be legitimately called the first of the true Americanists. He learned enough of the indigenous cultures to write a trilingual catechism. Experts on American ethnology have praised José Acosta's insightful understanding of the origins of the Native Americans: that they came from Asia by way of a now-submerged land connection with Alaska, and the fact that they then switched from hunting to urban living and built the magnificent cities that the Spanish conquistadors found. A prominent ethnologist said: "It was an astonishing bit of scholarly deduction for the time, given the absence of knowledge about the existence of such a land bridge."

--------

On his return to Spain in 1587, Acosta wrote the Historia, about his observations of America, and another, controversial book in which he strongly criticized the treatment given to the Indians by the Spaniards.

In direct violation of the Aristotelian approach, Acosta relied on experimental observation. For example, he described the temperate climate of the tropical regions on the basis of his own observations, when Aristotle had always taught that these areas were extremely hot and dry. He was not afraid to entitle chapter 4 of book 2 "That the tropics (torrida) have great abundance of water and vegetation in spite of Aristotle denying it." Even when he considered the Bible, he set himself apart from a literal interpretation, and when dealing with the subject of the sphericity of the heavens, he remarked that "in the divine Scriptures we must not follow the letter that kills but the spirit that gives life."
http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/sj/scientists/acosta.htm

If I'm not mistaken, Bluefish Caves was one of the first sites to suggest an much earlier migration to the Americas and is now part of a growing body of evidence. A long time ago, I read that a volcanic eruption in the area around 800 AD drove the local Na-Dene speakers away. They kept moving south until they settled in the American Southwest and became the Na-Dene speakers of that area. I don't know how much support there is for that, but the Navajo creation myth tells of them coming from a hole in the ground.

DNA analysis is based on a rate of mutation that can only be estimated, so it can never be perfect. But within its scope, it's already made some amazing revelations and there will probably be more as more data comes in. (I'm sure it could settle the question of Egyptian lineage in the Hopi. ) Even though the world's population is more homogenized today, they seem to able to distinguish between "distant past" and "recent". I understand that they think they can also trace the spread and evolution of languages through DNA analysis. But it can't stand alone. It's just another tool in the archeologist's kit, and it depends on the other tools to get its job done. It can't be done without first digging in the dirt.

I don't buy the Egyptian-Hopi connection yet, but I appreciated this line from your link on ancient water reservoirs in Arizona:

Rain showers still fill these reservoirs today—at least one has been consistently used in modern times as a watering hole for local cattle.

 

[quantumcarl]

I hadn't heard of Jose de Acosta before, but sounds like quite a scholar. He makes me feel like a bump on a log:

Yeah, this guy is outragious! Its a wonder that he wasn't burnt at the stake after 20 years of imprisonment and inquisitions by men in pointy hats.

I don't buy the Egyptian-Hopi connection yet, but I appreciated this line from your link on ancient water reservoirs in Arizona:

In my book, its highly unlikely that the MesoAmericans and the Egyptians came up with similar irrigation techniques, practically identical units of measurement for building pyramids, the advent of mummification and a form of writing that utilized heiroglyphs all during a similar period of time, without influence from one or the other civilization... or a third, more advanced influence on both.

Many other cultures used cubits as well:

The arabic Hashimi Cubit of about 650.2 mm (25.6 inches) is considered to measure two French feet. Since the established ratio between the French and English foot is 16 to 15 (the small error of about 0.086 % is owed to imperfect standards, not-adjusted mutually), one can give following equation: 5 Hashimi cubits = 10 French feet = 128 English inches. Also the length of 256 Roman cubits and the length of 175 Hashimi cubits are equivalent.
The Guard Cubit (arabic: ammatu rabitu) measured about 555.6 mm; 5/4 Roman cubit. Therefore: 96 Guard cubits equal 120 Roman cubits equal 175 English feet.

The Arabic Nil Cubit (or Black Cubit) measured about 540.2 mm. This means 28 (later called) Greek digits of the "Pous of Kyrenaika" equal to 25/24 Roman foot or just 308.7 mm. Thus 175 Roman Cubits equal 144 Black Cubits.

The Mesopotamian cubit measured about 533.4 mm, 6/5 Roman cubit. Thus, 20 Mesopotamian cubits equal 24 Roman cubits equal 35 English feet.
The Babylonian cubit (or cubit of Lagash) measured about 496.1 mm.

Also a Babylonian trade cubit existed, nine tenth of the normal cubit, i.e. 446.5 mm. The Babylonian Cubit is fifteen sixteenth of the Royal cubit. 160 Babylonian trade cubits equal 144 Babylonian cubits equal 135 Egyptian Royal cubits. (The Royal cubit is equal to 529.2 mm. See above).
Other less diffused or older cubits well existed. For example the Pergamon cubit 520.9 mm or 75/64 Roman cubit and the Salamis cubit 484.0 mm or 98/90 Roman cubit and the Persian cubit of about 500.1 mm or 9/8 Roman cubit, which is also 9/10 Guard cubit.

In Izapa, a Precolumbian Mesoamerican city, the measuring unit was also equivalent to about 495 mm. This must be a coincidence, because a diffusion of culture from Babylonia to Mesoamerica is not conclusive.

From: http://www.answers.com/topic/cubit

Not conclusive but, other evidence strongly suggests a connection. We must note that all other forms of the cubit are within easy reach of Egypt. Only the mesoamerican cubit is distant to the origin of this measurment. This doesn't mean that some Egyptian traders or refugees didn't make it there.

In fact, if a few basalt tools fashioned in a similar way to some other ones across the Atlantic can stir up suggestions that European aboriginals influenced an indigenous people in America... with the Atlantic and a millenium or two separating them... then the similarities in the development of techniques of agriculture, writing, building and so forth between Egypt and Early Americans shouldn't present such a far stretch for the imagination.

Dating of the mesoamerican sites has to be re-evaluated as well since carbon sitting on or next to a stone structure does not and cannot be used as an accurate source for dating the structure.

But, you're right in that a detailed survey of each individual's genetics amongst the former Anastazi (sp) (Hopi) in search of any remnants of Egyptian genetic material will help the more discerning researcher see the connection.

 

[Tojen]

Dating of the mesoamerican sites has to be re-evaluated as well since carbon sitting on or next to a stone structure does not and cannot be used as an accurate source for dating the structure.

I don't know about the Mesoamerican sites, but at the southwest U.S. sites I think the dating corresponds pretty closely with the climate conditions of the time, that is, occupation during a wetter periond, abandonment when a prolonged drought hit. But it does seem these days that anything is possible. If an Egyptian connection is established some time, it would be another great twist in the story.

A little more on the X lineage...One site said the number of individuals responsible for that line in the Americas was quite small, probably less that 125. That might mean the Atlantic crossing was accidental. Or, a lot more tried to make it but only they survived. We'll probably never know that one.

 

[quantumcarl]

I don't know about the Mesoamerican sites, but at the southwest U.S. sites I think the dating corresponds pretty closely with the climate conditions of the time, that is, occupation during a wetter periond, abandonment when a prolonged drought hit. But it does seem these days that anything is possible. If an Egyptian connection is established some time, it would be another great twist in the story.

A little more on the X lineage...One site said the number of individuals responsible for that line in the Americas was quite small, probably less that 125. That might mean the Atlantic crossing was accidental. Or, a lot more tried to make it but only they survived. We'll probably never know that one.

Do you mean the X lineage as in the European lineage influencing the pre-existing lineage already established in America?

As far as knowing what took place... it can be achieved... but when it is there'll only be a small percentage of people who care or care enough to believe the stats.

 

[Tojen]

Do you mean the X lineage as in the European lineage influencing the pre-existing lineage already established in America?

Yes, that's what I meant. According to that page, there were fewer than 125 Europeans who introduced the X lineage into the "native" population at the time. I've also come across this page which muddies it a bit more:

Depending on how large a group they assume headed west [from Europe to the Americas], they come up with two time ranges - either between 36,000 and 23,000 years ago or between 17,000 and 12,000 years ago.
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1406/features/dna2.htm

 

[quantumcarl]

Yes, that's what I meant. According to that page, there were fewer than 125 Europeans who introduced the X lineage into the "native" population at the time. I've also come across this page which muddies it a bit more:

36,000 years ago! This is fantastic news! (because I am one of a small percentage of people who get off about this sort of thing).

Showing a migration like this from 36,000 years or so ago really answers the question this thread asks... "So who else discovered America?" If its cooberated and verifiable, these folks win practically hands down.

I've often heard about dates of sites in Florida and even along the southern west coast that gave readings like 25,000 ybp and so forth. This has fueled my own speculation that there was migration from South America long before the Bering Land Bridge migration dates of 14,000 ybp... of course, the Bluefish Caves find had skewed that limit severely. But, it is possible these sites are evidence of these "Europeans" touring America!

This evidence of a 36,000 year old migration pushes the emergence of "modern man" way back, in my opinon, to dates that reach well beyond 40,000 or 50,000 ybp. This is speculation that takes into account the amount of time human development of cognitive comprehension, tools and physical mutations take to emerge.

So, when George Washington and his new formed, rebelious government, came up with the idea of a "United States" based on the 6 nations who had formed an alliance of nations or "United Nations" in order to defend their territories against the onslaught of the Spanish, French and English explorers and opportunists... Washington's role models were descendents of these continental interlopers from possibly 36,000 years ago. Another one of life's ironies.

 

[quantumcarl]

OK, Tojen, here's the major kicker from Andre. This PDF is not, necessarily, about the actual who dunnits that we have been investigating... but is an examination of the motivations and machinations behind the publications of dates and theories regarding the pre-historic habitation of North America.

In this article one of the sited examples also exhibits heavily evidenced proof of human habitation at around 260,000 ybp... but the princible investigator is reluctant to use the date for fear of being branded a "fringe" investigator... etc...

http://www.disputatio.com/articles/006-1.pdf

Thanks to Andre for expediently directing my attention to this article.

And now for more coffee ¡!

EDIT: Ach... I knew Greg would sell PF to the Scientology Freaks! I want to see an article about Greg having dinner with CHEF from South ParK!

 

[Tojen]

This kind of reaction to anomalous evidence is, as Meltzer says, understandable, but it also sounds quite contrary to the spirit of science. And yet it is a common response to anomalies.

Science would accomplish so much more if we could just keep people out of it...

Thanks for the link, rather eye-opening. I'd heard of objections to pre-Clovis claims, but I didn't realize the degree and extent of it. It reminded me of the Church's reaction to Galileo's discoveries. The good news is that in the end, the truth will eventually work its way to the surface, although some might have to go through academic hell first.

Speaking of anomalies, have you heard yet about this site in Ohio? It's a pretty big stretch for me, but then a few years ago so was pre-Clovis migration, and Cro-Magnons in North America, and...
http://www.daysknob.com/

Ach... I knew Greg would sell PF to the Scientology Freaks! I want to see an article about Greg having dinner with CHEF from South ParK!

That would be so-o-o much better than dinner with Tom Cruise.

Seriously, though, it's good to see this board finally get some religion.

Really seriously, though--good April Fool's joke. It had me going for a minute.

 

[quantumcarl]

Science would accomplish so much more if we could just keep people out of it...

No kidding

Thanks for the link, rather eye-opening. I'd heard of objections to pre-Clovis claims, but I didn't realize the degree and extent of it. It reminded me of the Church's reaction to Galileo's discoveries. The good news is that in the end, the truth will eventually work its way to the surface, although some might have to go through academic hell first.

More like emoto/ego hell!

Speaking of anomalies, have you heard yet about this site in Ohio? It's a pretty big stretch for me, but then a few years ago so was pre-Clovis migration, and Cro-Magnons in North America, and...
http://www.daysknob.com/

OK, I had a look at these. Curious as hell. I could de-bunk the living snot out of this claim but the number of specimens is holding me back.

I always want verification like strata depths, charcol remains, post holes, barbique sites and remnants from the manufacturing of tools. If this isn't a true site it's a CIA or Smithsonian plant. In fact, I could see Jesus, JFK and a few Minoan Kings in the sculpturettes.

These excavators need to scour the surroundings for habitation sites. It could take a long time. I surface-surveyed the entire south coast of the Sunshine Coast
http://www.sunshinecoast.ca/index.php?obj=Home&view=Map&X=102&Y=134&map_size=160
with only one assistant for 4 months. We had the task of proving habitation took place on that coast at 10,000 ybp. The trick was to stay at 500 ft above sea level (which was sea level @ 10,000 ybp) and I used an altimeter to stay on track. The whole area had been logged and disturbed over the milenia so it was very slim pickin's. And, the Devil's Club
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0905_030905_tvdevilsclub.html
grows with great tenacity in the area... which can be extremely stimulating... to say the least!

I realize that glaciation and/or meltdown/runoff may have wiped out any chance of finding camps or villages... either at the Day's Knob or on the Sunshine Coast. There was a lot of water freed-up as a result of the changes taking place.

That would be so-o-o much better than dinner with Tom Cruise.

Seriously, though, it's good to see this board finally get some religion.

Really seriously, though--good April Fool's joke. It had me going for a minute.

Hee hee. I freaked. I think I dropped some artifacts

 

[scott1]

What about the Vikings?Didn't they have settelment in Canada?
If chinese where here back then,I wonder what would of happened if they kept there colonies here even after coloumbus "discoverd" america.I wonder if we would the American-chinese war instead of the Mexcan-American war.

 

[Tojen]

scott1,

Yep, the Vikings left evidence in L'anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland, and maybe got as far south as the New England states, if I remember correctly. That was around 1000 AD, about 15,000-20,000 years after the first migrants to the New World (that we suspect, anyway).
http://fp.thesalmons.org/lynn/wh-canada.html"

I can't vouch for the Chinese being here. If the were, we might have had gunpowder here sooner, and nice vases.

 

[Tojen]

quantumcarl,

OK, I had a look at these. Curious as hell. I could de-bunk the living snot out of this claim but the number of specimens is holding me back.

I always want verification like strata depths, charcol remains, post holes, barbique sites and remnants from the manufacturing of tools. If this isn't a true site it's a CIA or Smithsonian plant. In fact, I could see Jesus, JFK and a few Minoan Kings in the sculpturettes.

I saw the large number of specimens as one of the arguments against their validity. The ancient people who supposedly made them must have churned them out in factories. Like you said, most of them are so vague that they're open to all kinds of interpretation. (I clearly saw Ramtha in one of them, proving that J.Z. Knight is legit. ) And they're being found at all strata, which suggests they're just part of the glacial till. (I left a comment on the website and he emailed me back right away. He's eager to talk about them, understandably.)

The trick was to stay at 500 ft above sea level (which was sea level @ 10,000 ybp)

When I read that, I thought you were mistaken. I thought sea levels were down then but the Internet says I thought wrong:

From 10,000 rcbp to 8,000 rcbp [12,000-10,000 ybp] sea levels rose dramatically, perhaps as much as 10 to 20 km in a single human lifetime.
http://www.teamatlantis.com/yucatan_test/research_paleoindian.html

If that's the case, it must have been tough for people on the coast. Besides having to keep moving inland, they would probably have to adapt to new food resources. And deal with Devil's Club too, if it was around then. That's a nasty piece of work.

Hee hee. I freaked. I think I dropped some artifacts

Ouch! Nothing valuable I hope.

 

[quantumcarl]

quantumcarl,
I saw the large number of specimens as one of the arguments against their validity. The ancient people who supposedly made them must have churned them out in factories. Like you said, most of them are so vague that they're open to all kinds of interpretation. (I clearly saw Ramtha in one of them, proving that J.Z. Knight is legit. ) And they're being found at all strata, which suggests they're just part of the glacial till. (I left a comment on the website and he emailed me back right away. He's eager to talk about them, understandably.)

Yes, and perhaps it was an ancient cluster-bomb full of bird figure shrapnel.

When I read that, I thought you were mistaken. I thought sea levels were down then but the Internet says I thought wrong:

The theory at the time of my investigation was that the weight of glaciation sunk the land under it by 500 feet into the ocean. As the glaciers receded, the land came back up (500 ft). I have a feeling that idea may have been scraped by now.

Recent findings show an advance of the ocean over the last 20,000 years by up to 60 meters. We have lost scads of coastline. This portends well for underwater archaeology and to accommodate this we need to start a whole new thread. There are evidences in this field that point to much earlier and more sofisticated civilizations than are presently accepted/admitted by the emotive and egotistical powers that be.

If that's the case, it must have been tough for people on the coast. Besides having to keep moving inland, they would probably have to adapt to new food resources. And deal with Devil's Club too, if it was around then. That's a nasty piece of work.

Inland, at 10,000 years bp would have been glaciated... as far as we know. I have met with the Chief of a Nation near the Nishga governed lands of middle British Columbia who told me about a habitation above the glacial mark of that era. He said its made of stones which is quite a development for the NWCoast peoples who primarily used cedar. I have a feeling it was a seasonal hunting camp. But, I've been wrong more than I'll admit to before!

However, this chief and Director of Mining on his land also told me that there are individuals of his people who carry genes from the Toltecan people of Mexico or Central America. This development is no doubt linked to how the people of his Nation, up to 7000 years bc were trading Obsidian with that Nation of Central America. This is confirmed by matching the "fingerprint" of the Obsidian tools found in Central America with the Obsidian from the Chief's anscestrial Obsidian quarries. Results show they are the same obsidian.

Devils club was around as far back as the dinosaurs. During another excavation, in a very lush area, the elders of that Nation showed us a cool trick which was to take a bath in Devil's Club steeped water. So only two of us tried it and our skin felt like a pin cushion and we were very stimulated. However, it was a wonderful cure for a hang-over which is a common artifact of excavations.

 

[Tojen]

it was a wonderful cure for a hang-over which is a common artifact of excavations.

Now I want to be an archaeologist more than ever.

A sailing friend of mine is not surprised at all about a possible Atlantic crossing 15,000 years ago or earlier. He said two weeks of good weather and favourable winds is common (nowadays, at least), and if they did encounter a storm, small boats would handle it better than big ships.

That, and the obsidian evidence you mentioned, and a whole lot of other evidence, seems to point out that there was a lot more going on than we give the ancients credit for. There will surely be more surprises coming, probably sooner than later.

Devils club was around as far back as the dinosaurs.

Maybe that's what wiped them out...

 

[quantumcarl]

Now I want to be an archaeologist more than ever.

Archaeology is coming into its own through supporting an ethical market place. The science is used to determine the cultural sensitivities potentially harmed by any industrial activity. It will solve licencing problems and help to avoid future conflicts and inefficiencies that might occur between the interests of the communities in question and the market/industries in question.

There are, today, wages being offered to archaeologists that could be construed to be 800 percent higher than those wages I have experienced doing the same thing. That will get you some damn, extreme, premium scotch for the cook-tent.

A sailing friend of mine is not surprised at all about a possible Atlantic crossing 15,000 years ago or earlier. He said two weeks of good weather and favourable winds is common (nowadays, at least), and if they did encounter a storm, small boats would handle it better than big ships.

That, and the obsidian evidence you mentioned, and a whole lot of other evidence, seems to point out that there was a lot more going on than we give the ancients credit for. There will surely be more surprises coming, probably sooner than later.

See Charles Hapgood's "The Ancient Mariners".
Title could be slightly different. He offers discussion and plates of well known maps that clearly indicate their production date to be 20,000 years bp. The date is determined by how much of Antartica is depicted as being ice free. The coastline of Antartica on the map matches today's understanding of what lays beneath the two miles of ice covering the same area.

Anyway you're right... ultimately, archaeology rocks.

EDIT: Archaeology has also made a huge advance as an lucritive profession with the police and law in general. The Canadian RCMP use its detailed and forensic aspects in the field. There is one case where up to 100 archaeologists were employed over several years in recovering evidence.

 

[Mk]

Yes Magnetic dating is very commonly used for (multi)million time scales and has served as a imported calibration/verification tool for other dating methods.

So how does magnetic dating work?

Got back to this thread, very interesting.

 

[Andre]

So how does magnetic dating work?

http://pda.physorg.com/lofi-news-rock-footprints-years_8657.html

...Many rocks retain evidence of their orientation at the moment they cool in the form of iron oxide grains magnetized in a direction parallel to the Earth's magnetic field at the time of cooling. Because the Earth's field has repeatedly flipped throughout the planet's history, it is possible to date rock based on its magnetic polarity.

Feinberg found that the rock grains in the volcanic ash had polarity opposite to the Earth's polarity today. Since the last magnetic pole reversal was 790,000 years ago, the rock must be at least that age. Because the Earth's magnetic polarity changes, on average, every 250,000 years, the argon/argon date is consistent with a time between 1.07 and 1.77 million years ago when the Earth's polarity was opposite to that of today.

 

[quantumcarl]

http://pda.physorg.com/lofi-news-rock-footprints-years_8657.html

Where can I get a pair of those 1.77 million year old vintage shoes they were wearing through the volcanic ash! ?

 

[Tojen]

See Charles Hapgood's "The Ancient Mariners". Title could be slightly different.

Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings, by Charles Hapgood. Looks intriguing. There doesn't seem to be much support for it, but I'm willing to give it a go.

Another thing about crossing oceans in ancient times: If storms are getting worse because of warmer temperatures these days, is the converse true? Back when the climate was colder, were storms much less severe?

The Canadian RCMP use its detailed and forensic aspects in the field. There is one case where up to 100 archaeologists were employed over several years in recovering evidence.

Would that be the Picton case? I know they were recruiting archaeologists from across Canada, I think, for that. A friend of a friend who is an archaeology student worked on that for a while. Digging through pig manure isn't as glamourous as unearthing ancient secrets, but the wages were good, as you said. And the scotch, I'm sure.

There's still a lot questions about the footprints in Mexico, but they're sure intriguing. Wouldn't that be something if the first human visitors here weren't the first hominids here.

 

[Mk]

How can we possibly use magnetic dating well? Geomagnetic reversals are extremely erratic and wouldn't all the feromagnetized iron particles be aligned either north to south or south to north? That only gives us two states!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/02/Geomagnetic_late_cenozoic.png

What does pre-Clovian mean?

 

[Tojen]

Someone else will have to explain magnetic dating, but Clovis refers to a style of projectile points that first appeared in the Americas about 12,000 years ago. Since that fit nicely with the theory of the time, that the Americas were first populated by Asians about 12,500 years ago, it was assumed the Asian migrants had brought the technology with them. Those assumptions appear to be wrong, and that people were coming here prior to 12,500 ybp, or pre-Clovis.

And as quantumcarl pointed out, the Clovis technology appears to be a product not of Asia, but an evolution of the Solutrean style in Europe about 20,000 years ago. That is supported by an apparent genetic link to Europe at about that time.

 

[Mk]

So what was up with the Kenniwick man anyway? It is thought he was of a isolated Native American tribe?

 

[Tojen]

From a post earlier in this thread:

September 12, 2004 - Discovery

DNA analysis of skulls found in Baja California that belonged to an extinct tribe called the Pericues reveal that the Pericues likely were not related to Native Americans and that they probably predated Native Americans in settling the Americas.

The finding, released at the British Association for the Advancement of Science (BA) Festival of Science in Exeter, England, adds support to the theory that a number of groups arrived in the Americas via different routes and at varying times, possibly as early as 25,000 years ago.

The study also suggests that the two oldest known Americans — Peñon woman and Kennewick Man — might have belonged to the Pericues tribe.
http://www.crystalinks.com/pericues.html (this is a copy of the original article at Discovery.com which no longer exists)

The Pericues lived on the southern tip of the Baja Peninsula when the Spaniards first arrived. Their obvious physical and linguistic differences from other tribes around them were noted immediately by the Spaniards. They died out soon after, but DNA analysis on some of their skeletons suggests they were not related to other American Indians and that their ancestors arrived in the Americas before those of present day Natives, that is, before 12,000 years ago, maybe as much as 20,000-25,000 ybp. As far as I know, no DNA testing has been done on Kennewick Man, but comparisons have been made with the Pericues on the basis of skull shape.

 

[quantumcarl]

Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings, by Charles Hapgood. Looks intriguing. There doesn't seem to be much support for it, but I'm willing to give it a go.

Thank you for correcting my incorrect title for Hapgood's book. It was published long before the imaging technology that mapped the ice-covered coast line of Antartica was available. The book has the Piri Re'is Map that shows the correct coast line as though it has no ice to obscure mapping proceedures.

Hapgood employed James H. Campbell, a mathematician-engineer as well as many other accredited professionals in his bid to uncover the truth about past and present geological and meterological events on earth. Charles Hapgood is documented to have exchanged ideas and theories with Albert Einstein in a series of letters and visits. Einstein is said to have not only "supported" Hapgoods efforts... but was also quite shaken by the implications of Hapgoods findings.

Another thing about crossing oceans in ancient times: If storms are getting worse because of warmer temperatures these days, is the converse true? Back when the climate was colder, were storms much less severe?

If you've followed any of Andre's writing on this forum you'll note that Earth's climate has gone from cooling to warming during several periods and due to various causes. Although the cycles are long in relation to human standards, it looks as though the global climate and weather has been up and down the barometer/thermometer a few times before and since the proported 20,000 year old ancient mariners and Egyptian traders etc... were getting around.

Would that be the Picton case? I know they were recruiting archaeologists from across Canada, I think, for that. A friend of a friend who is an archaeology student worked on that for a while. Digging through pig manure isn't as glamourous as unearthing ancient secrets, but the wages were good, as you said. And the scotch, I'm sure.

This is an ongoing case. Pig manure is nothing compared to the details of the case which I will not repeat here. I'm sure those who want to will be able to catch it on FOX.

 

[cronxeh]

Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings, by Charles Hapgood. Looks intriguing. There doesn't seem to be much support for it, but I'm willing to give it a go.

I actually just got that book by mail, yesterday. I've ordered it last week, the funny thing is I find it fascinating that 1-3 mile thick ice has never been drilled all the way through, and nobody knows just what is on the surface of Antarctica or Greenland. Heck, there could be an entire civilization or even *GASP* aliens!

 

[quantumcarl]

I actually just got that book by mail, yesterday. I've ordered it last week, the funny thing is I find it fascinating that 1-3 mile thick ice has never been drilled all the way through, and nobody knows just what is on the surface of Antarctica or Greenland. Heck, there could be an entire civilization or even *GASP* aliens!

Here's some news on what's under the 1 - 3 miles thick ice covering the land mass of Antartica

Secret rivers found in Antarctic
By Helen Briggs
BBC News science reporter


Hundreds of lakes lie beneath the frozen wastes of Antarctica

Antarctica's buried lakes are connected by a network of rivers moving water far beneath the surface, say UK scientists.

It was thought the sub-glacial lakes had been completely sealed for millions of years, enabling unique species to evolve in them.

Writing in the journal Nature, experts say international plans to drill into the lakes may now have to be reviewed.

Any attempts to drill into one body of water risks contaminating others.

"What this paper shows is that not only could you contaminate a lake, you could contaminate the whole drainage system," lead author Duncan Wingham, of University College London, told the BBC News website.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4908292.stm

There have also been fossils of Dinosaurs found in Antartica.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1056189.htm

More about Antartica, concise and cool site:

http://www.bu.edu/alumni/bostonia/2000/winter/antarctic/