Who Is the Most Underrated Rock Drummer?

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To be considered underrated, a musician must be highly skilled, have significant exposure through hit records and tours, yet remain largely unrecognized. The discussion highlights drummer Albert Bouchard from Blue Oyster Cult, noted for his subtlety and originality, as an example of this phenomenon. Comparisons are made with other drummers like Ian Paice, who, despite his talent and exposure, is often overshadowed by more celebrated drummers like Neil Peart and John Bonham. The conversation also touches on the varying perceptions of drummers such as Ringo Starr, who, despite his popularity, is sometimes dismissed in discussions about technical skill. The concept of "underratedness" is explored through various formulas that consider musical ability, record sales, and levels of praise, suggesting that even highly skilled musicians can be overlooked in favor of more famous counterparts. Overall, the thread emphasizes the complexity of recognition in the music industry and the subjective nature of what defines an underrated artist.
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To be underrated you have to
1) be really good
2) have had lots of exposure, playing on hit records and touring and such
3) nevertheless go unnoticed

I've been making a fancy video with Blue Oyster Cult's Don't Fear The Reaper. Hearing it many times I gradually focused on drummer Albert Bouchard. Such understated subtlety, taste, and originality.
 
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Hornbein said:
To be underrated you have to
1) be really good
2) have had lots of exposure, playing on hit records and touring and such
3) nevertheless go unnoticed

I've been making a fancy video with Blue Oyster Cult's Don't Fear The Reaper. Hearing it many times I gradually focused on drummer Albert Bouchard. Such understated subtlety, taste, and originality.
Ian Paice.
 
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Sean Kinney
 
pinball1970 said:
Ian Paice.
Nah man. He gets a lot of praise.
 
Hornbein said:
Nah man. He gets a lot of praise.
As much as Neil Peart and John Bonham? And of course Keith Moon, the non drummers drummer.
 
Hornbein said:
Nah man. He gets a lot of praise.
The evidence. lets look at point one. How good was he? The opening is pretty insane, this is 1971. The break at 1.03 is aggressive as hell but he puts this lovely little triplet in the middle on his snare. I only spotted it when I slowed it down to half speed. (I did that by moving the stylus speed between 33 and 44 rpm on my girlfriends record player. Once discovered I started doing it with Buddy Rich to work out his tricks until one day, she came home put a record on and the damn thing stuck. It would only play 16 rpm or so. Man I paid for that one!)

 
Point 2- Yes Purple were very big between 1970-76. Paice continued with Whitesnake then Purple again from 1985.
 
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  • #12
Keith moon drum solo

 
  • #13
Ian Paice - he would have been about 23 here.

 
  • #14
Mayhem said:
Sean Kinney
Seems like a cool guy, I watched a couple of interviews. I dont know much of the music, can you post a showcase piece?
 
  • #15
Karen Carpenter

 
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  • #16
pinball1970 said:
Seems like a cool guy, I watched a couple of interviews. I dont know much of the music, can you post a showcase piece?
Alice in Chains drummer during their entire existence.
 
  • #18
Mayhem said:
Alice in Chains drummer during their entire existence.
A drum solo? Or one or two definitive tracks? I don't have time to listen to their back catalogue.
 
  • #19
pinball1970 said:
The evidence. lets look at point one. How good was he? The opening is pretty insane, this is 1971. The break at 1.03 is aggressive as hell but he puts this lovely little triplet in the middle on his snare. I only spotted it when I slowed it down to half speed. (I did that by moving the stylus speed between 33 and 44 rpm on my girlfriends record player. Once discovered I started doing it with Buddy Rich to work out his tricks until one day, she came home put a record on and the damn thing stuck. It would only play 16 rpm or so. Man I paid for that one!)


That is pretty cool. A unique style. I never would have found this one. There's John Lord's nutty solo too.
 
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  • #20
Karen won the Playboy poll? Wow.
pinball1970 said:
Ian Paice - he would have been about 23 here.


Reminds me of Buddy Rich. (One of my aunts looks a lot like him. I made sure never to mention this.) Well I learned something here.
 
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  • #21
pinball1970 said:
A drum solo? Or one or two definitive tracks? I don't have time to listen to their back catalogue.
How about this.



Strong and solid and supportive, no empty flash, the power of simplicity, but I don't get what's special.

I used to hang out online with professional recording engineers. Hundreds of them. They had stories about "when I did the mix for Michael Jackson's Billy Jean" and stuff like that. They were completely stuck in the past. Everything new was of no interest. I gave this cover a try. They said Gretchen was pretty good but of course didn't hold a candle with the original. Good grief. After that I gave up. It was just impossible.

That Rolling Stone list is pretty good. All sorts of guys I'd never heard of, thusly destroying their "underrated" status. So how about the best drummer to not make the list? I'd go with Clive Bunker late of Jethro Tull. Great tone. And Glenn Cornick would have a real shot at underrated ebassist. Tull though didn't get really popular until these guys were replaced by a power-of-simplicity rhythm section. C'est la rock and roll vis.

 
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  • #22
I love Moon's stuff. I'm a guy who likes a lot of randomness in his life. I did once encounter some isolated Moon drums. In the absence of the rest of the band it sounded like a high school kid messing around in the garage. I think he focused on supporting the vocal, that's the secret of playing so wildly without just producing clutter. Jaco Pastorius, same. He dug Frank Sinatra and wanted to be a singer. I have suffered the misfortune of witnessing one of Jaco's attempts at vocalization.

That reminds me. Here's one of my fave examples of playing very freely while still solidly supporting the singer. Don Alias on drums. He didn't make the Rolling Stone list. I've heard zero praise for him but damn this is good.



It must be said that going to this style cost Joni many fans. She didn't care. She had it made already, so she did what she had wanted all along to do and never turned back. Artists....
 
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  • #23
I don't see this converging. You want someone famous, but not too famous.

My vote is for Hal Blaine. Played on 40 #1 songs. As for "not too famous", Bruce Gary (the Knack) was disappointed to find that his 10 favorite drummers were all Hal Blaine.
 
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  • #24
PS Karen Carpenter did not play drums on her recordings. It was...Hal Blaine.
 
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  • #25
Vanadium 50 said:
I don't see this converging. You want someone famous, but not too famous.
How about this.
$$ \frac {RecordSales} {(praise +1)} = Underratedness $$
The +1 is to get a defined result in the case of zero praise.

Dammit, they say there's a preview button but if so it's invisible to me. So much for the Latex Guide. Any help out there?

My vote is for Hal Blaine. Played on 40 #1 songs. As for "not too famous", Bruce Gary (the Knack) was disappointed to find that his 10 favorite drummers were all Hal Blaine.

May I be so bold as to ask what's your fave Blaine, the one that will make me a fan too?
 
  • #26
Frabjous said:
Under that formula, a drum machine with a praise of 0 is probably the most underrated drummer.
Oops. Let's try this.

$$ MusicalAbility * \frac {RecordSales} {(praise +1)} = Underratedness $$
I heard Tony Williams say he liked the drummer for Mister Mister. Someone told him it was a drum machine. He was cool with that.
 
  • #27
Karen Carpenter is really good jazz drummer.



She said drumming her real interest, that she didn't care about singing and never practiced. And people say there is no such thing as talent.

But as winner of the Playboy poll (!) clearly not underrated.

Light My Fire was the first song Robbie Krieger ever wrote. And people still say there is no such thing as talent.

I note that the Wurlitzer electric piano is a leading candidate for the My Least Favorite Instrument award. That or the Minimoog.
 
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  • #28
I'll start with the six consecutive Grammy "Records of the Year" he played on.

  • Herb Alpert & the Tijuana Brass "A Taste of Honey"
  • Frank Sinatra "Strangers in the Night"
  • The 5th Dimension "Up, Up and Away"
  • Simon & Garfunkel "Mrs. Robinson"
  • The 5th Dimension "Aquarius/Let the Sunshine In"
  • Simon & Garfunkel in "Bridge over Troubled Water"

And toss in the Beach Boys "Wouldn't It Be Nice" . (Bass, Carol Kaye)

You can look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_song_recordings_featuring_Hal_Blaine but it is incomplete. A complete list would have 35000 entries.
 
  • #29
Vanadium 50 said:
I'll start with the six consecutive Grammy "Records of the Year" he played on.

  • Herb Alpert & the Tijuana Brass "A Taste of Honey"
  • Frank Sinatra "Strangers in the Night"
  • The 5th Dimension "Up, Up and Away"
  • Simon & Garfunkel "Mrs. Robinson"
  • The 5th Dimension "Aquarius/Let the Sunshine In"
  • Simon & Garfunkel in "Bridge over Troubled Water"

And toss in the Beach Boys "Wouldn't It Be Nice" . (Bass, Carol Kaye)

You can look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_song_recordings_featuring_Hal_Blaine but it is incomplete. A complete list would have 35000 entries.
So I gave A Taste of Honey a shot. You are right. Very tasteful, subtle, and groovy drumming. Just the sort of thing to make a man underrated.

Huge exposure.

Let's see, is Hal Blaine on the Rolling Stone list of 100 drummers? Uh oh. Number five. Praise not small. Well, I guess it depends on whether you want to depend on expert praise (very high) or ordinary fan praise (near zero) of Hal Blaine's drumming. And that is a matter of taste.

Now I'm even more impressed with that drummer list. Whoever came up with that knew the inside story.

I had no respect for such lists. I remember the first one. It was electric guitarists. What a joke. It was just a reflection of Jann Wenner's personal ignorant taste. Well if he wanted to do that with his magazine that was his right, but I was not going to pay any attention to his tripes. So now (thirty years later?) RS has taken its status as an arbitrator of taste seriously and cleaned up its act to become a useful resource. Hats off to them.

How about this:
$$ MusicalAbility * \frac {RecordSales} {(ExpertPraise*FanPraise +1)} = Underratedness $$
Hal Blaine has so little Fan Praise he ought to do pretty well with this.
 
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  • #30
Frabjous said:
Under that formula, a drum machine with a praise of 0 is probably the most underrated drummer.
I would say the drum machine is undefined.
 
  • #31
Yes the wrecking crew were legend and part of musical history but was Hal Baine a great drummer? Technically?
He was a great musician sure, played on some my favourite songs of all time but then again so did Ringo, Ola Brunkert, Robert Siebenberg and Nigel Olsson.
 
  • #32
Hornbein said:
How about this.



Strong and solid and supportive, no empty flash, the power of simplicity, but I don't get what's special.

I used to hang out online with professional recording engineers. Hundreds of them. They had stories about "when I did the mix for Michael Jackson's Billy Jean" and stuff like that. They were completely stuck in the past. Everything new was of no interest. I gave this cover a try. They said Gretchen was pretty good but of course didn't hold a candle with the original. Good grief. After that I gave up. It was just impossible.

That Rolling Stone list is pretty good. All sorts of guys I'd never heard of, thusly destroying their "underrated" status. So how about the best drummer to not make the list? I'd go with Clive Bunker late of Jethro Tull. Great tone. And Glenn Cornick would have a real shot at underrated ebassist. Tull though didn't get really popular until these guys were replaced by a power-of-simplicity rhythm section. C'est la rock and roll vis.


Forget the drums, Gretchen Wilson! Wow! what an amazing voice!? Ann Wilson's vocals on those early Heart albums are something else but that lady gave a great rendition. Brilliant.

The Tull track reminded me of of Manic Depression by Hendrix. Clive Bunker and Mitch Mitchell were great drummers. I think they would get a decent underrated score.

 
  • #33
Best drummer not on the Top 100 list? So we're looking for the 101st best drummer now?
 
  • #34
Vanadium 50 said:
Best drummer not on the Top 100 list? So we're looking for the 101st best drummer now?
The lists I posted were a reference to how low Ian Paice seem to place compared to technically inferior drummers like Ringo, Keith Moon, Charlie Watts and Ginger Baker.
EDIT: Ok I just read Hornbein's comment about not making the list. Low placing or not making the list would illustrate underratedness (that list anyway there must be lots of others)
Clive Bunker was a much better drummer than many of the high placing "famous" guys.
 
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  • #35
This is fun I admit it.
Drums, gosh.
Of all the threads I read on pf it is very very rare I come across a thread where I think, "I really know the nuts and bolts to this!"
 
  • #36
Earl Palmer deserves some attention. Perhaps the 2nd best studio drummer ever; the other mainstay of the wrecking crew. Described online as "the inventor of the rock and roll beat" and "the most recorded drummer of all time". From Little Richard to Elvis Costello he played with damn near everyone at some time.
 
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  • #37
DaveE said:
Earl Palmer deserves some attention. Perhaps the 2nd best studio drummer ever; the other mainstay of the wrecking crew. Described online as "the inventor of the rock and roll beat" and "the most recorded drummer of all time". From Little Richard to Elvis Costello he played with damn near everyone at some time.
Ian Paice is a huge fan. First name on his favourite drummer influence list.

 
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  • #38
Frabjous said:
While this song is known for the guitar, I have always loved the drums on it.


Great guitar player, I don't know the band.
 
  • #39
Hornbein said:
To be underrated you have to
1) be really good
2) have had lots of exposure, playing on hit records and touring and such
3) nevertheless go unnoticed

I've been making a fancy video with Blue Oyster Cult's Don't Fear The Reaper. Hearing it many times I gradually focused on drummer Albert Bouchard. Such understated subtlety, taste, and originality.
Animal.
That Muppet literally said he would choose drumming over food and has been in some legendary battles.
Hands down, underrated.
 
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  • #40
MotherMayhem said:
Animal.
That Muppet literally said he would choose drumming over food and has been in some legendary battles.
Hands down, underrated.
Ronnie Verrell. I loved his battle with Buddy Rich, possibly my introduction to him.
 
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  • #41
Bill ward

 
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  • #42
pinball1970 said:
Ronnie Verrell. I loved his battle with Buddy Rich, possibly my introduction to him.
You can't take the magic away from the Muppet.
We know who it was behind that wild fluffy beast, and he was sensational!
But for the sake of this post, my answer MUST have him go under the name 'Animal' 🤣
One does not simply wipe the makeup off 'Kiss' or take the masks off 'Slipknot', (Rip Joey) or have the animation be removed from 'The Gorillaz'..
THIS is what makes him underrated and so magnificent. He wasn't Animal for his own personal glory. Much like Animal himself, he just wanted to drum, and drum he did!
He found his spirit Muppet and he loved every minute of it.
 
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  • #43
BWV said:
Bill ward
My friend gives another vote for Bill Ward. He's an ardent Sabbath fan.
 
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  • #44
PeroK said:
My friend gives another vote for Bill Ward. He's an ardent Sabbath fan.
Fair enough. Sold a stack of records but is not mentioned much with the great drummers of the 70s.
 
  • #45
Hornbein said:
To be underrated you have to
1) be really good
2) have had lots of exposure, playing on hit records and touring and such
3) nevertheless go unnoticed

I've been making a fancy video with Blue Oyster Cult's Don't Fear The Reaper. Hearing it many times I gradually focused on drummer Albert Bouchard. Such understated subtlety, taste, and originality.
Albert Bouchard is my favorite drummer by far, with the keyword being originality, not to discount the others. No other drummer played something that was musical like he did, and he always found something that not only fit with the tone of the song, but enhanced it. His playing was like listening to a guitar lead as opposed to "holding down the bottom".

He was also technically better than the people who usually get sited for that, such as Neil Peart. If you listen to the live version of Flaming Telepaths, his intro is machine gun fast, and wouldn't be out of place on death metal albums.

 
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  • #46
RockGod7 said:
Albert Bouchard is my favorite drummer by far, with the keyword being originality, not to discount the others. No other drummer played something that was musical like he did, and he always found something that not only fit with the tone of the song, but enhanced it. His playing was like listening to a guitar lead as opposed to "holding down the bottom".

He was also technically better than the people who usually get sited for that, such as Neil Peart. If you listen to the live version of Flaming Telepaths, his intro is machine gun fast, and wouldn't be out of place on death metal albums.


I prefer the studio version but I like the drumming.
 
  • #47
One day in 1996 I was driving up to a bridge in Corvallis Oregon. Pinball Wizard came on the radio. It was a hit when I was a kid so I'd heard it a hundred times, but somehow this time it was different. I was riveted by the drumming. I'd never really heard it before. The scene remains permanently impressed on my mind, everything I was seeing and hearing at the time, just like when I heard tell of the Kennedy assassination. Later I made this vid in honor of the occasion. It's a remix with boosted trap drums. I like the randomness of the cymbal crashes.



Roger Daltry said Keith once attacked him with the sharp edges of a tambourine. Roger was a sheet metal worker and used his strength to teach skinny Keith a lesson. "He deserved it," quoth Roger. Daltry also said he formed the band. He first saw John Entwistle walking down a sidewalk with a bass. Roger made the connection right then and there. There was so much tension the band once tried to go it without him but flopped so badly they never tried it again.

During another Corvallis drive there came via radio a violin concerto with the v so good I pulled over and parked to hear the whole thing undistracted and so I could find out who it was. Afterward they announced it was Sarah Chang. I found out later that USA violinists were jealous of her success, saying she relied too much on her history as a cute prodigy and later glamor. Well, she passed my blindfold test with flying colors, thank you very much.

I recently attended a recital by violinist Hilary Hahn, who these days might win a Best In The World poll. Very subdued. Huge disappointment. Maybe as a new mother she's abjured passion, giving up on being a "mother" in the jazz musician argot sense. But I imagine she'll be back some day. Maybe the kid will turn bratty and piss her off. That'd put some fire back in there.

I for the longest time couldn't figure what the big deal was about John Entwistle's ebass playing. It turns out he was very restrained in the studio but let loose on stage. In his late career he suffered from high-frequency hearing loss but insisted on adjusting his tone so that it sounded right to himself. Ouch. His nickname was The Ox, presumably because he was big, strong, and quiet.

I like the earlier poppier Who records, though I later found out that they secretly hired a group to do the background vocals. That explains why they couldn't duplicate those tunes on stage, a big disadvantage. I also don't believe that Pete played the guitar solo on Can't Explain. It's much more chaotic than anything else he ever did. I thought it was Jimmy Page, that paragon of chaos. Sure enough, Daltry recently (2018) confirmed this. Ha! Can't fool me. Surely it's JP on the Kinks' You Really Got Me too. Dave Davies never sounded like that.
 
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  • #48
Another underrated drummer : Tres Cool of Green Day.



He doesn't quite make the rolls, but IMO all drummers shared this condition until Senri Kawaguchi made the scene.
 
  • #49
pinball1970 said:
Yes the wrecking crew were legend and part of musical history but was Hal Baine a great drummer? Technically?
He was a great musician sure, played on some my favourite songs of all time but then again so did Ringo, Ola Brunkert, Robert Siebenberg and Nigel Olsson.
Do not despair. Years ago I read a similar poll among professional musicians in San Francisco that gave honorary 'underrated drummer' status to Ringo Starr. The gist of the responses was that the Beatles were so insanely popular that that mop top must hide a major percussive talent, evidence from the movie "A Hard Day's Night" notwithstanding.

Rolling Stone columnist Hunter Thompson supposedly compared Ringo's talent to that of a talking dog. "The amazing thing about a talking dog is not what it says, but that it talks at all.". What does a glorified sports writer understand about music?
 
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  • #50
Klystron said:
Do not despair. Years ago I read a similar poll among professional musicians in San Francisco that gave honorary 'underrated drummer' status to Ringo Starr. The gist of the responses was that the Beatles were so insanely popular that that mop top must hide a major percussive talent, evidence from the movie "A Hard Day's Night" notwithstanding.

Rolling Stone columnist Hunter Thompson supposedly compared Ringo's talent to that of a talking dog. "The amazing thing about a talking dog is not what it says, but that it talks at all.". What does a glorified sports writer understand about music?
My observation is that Ringo is dissed a lot. He had a comical stage name and clownish persona and sings not very well, that didn't help. The lame Ringo Song was a traditional sort of joke. It didn't help that Bernard Purdy claimed to have played on early Beatles recordings.* But he's #14 on the Rolling Stone list so we can say he's a big success with those in the know. Myself I didn't think much of him but slowly grew to appreciate what he does. He's devoted 100% to supporting the singer and the song and never fails to do so. He knows rumba and cha-cha beats and his work on Tomorrow Never Knows is genius. His solo on Birthday is SO cool. I've learned not to care so much about chops and to respect Ringo. So let's say that Ringo is a success with the experts but perhaps underrated by the general public.

By the way, Ringo means "apple" in Japanese. Did Yoko tell them that, inspiring The Beatle's Apple Corps, later to be monickeristically followed by the eponymous computer company?

---
*The skinny seems to be that Purdy played on some demos but not the official records.
 
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