Why Are Old VW Beetles Still So Popular?

[zoobyshoe]

Who was the manufacturer of this car?

I took some pains to compose my opening post without ever mentioning the manufacturer to underscore the fact the car is so popular and recognizable it isn't necessary to specify (beyond the photographic hint). For those who needed to have the manufacturer named, I included the clip from the Woody Allen movie.

 

[OmCheeto]

Looking back, it may have been my VW, that got me interested in "engineering".

I'm guessing that I weighed about 100 lbs back when I was 16, and a ten foot long "cheater bar" would extrapolate to a 1000 foot-pounds of torque to get that stinking hub nut off.

The "stick shaped thing" was required, as the "parking brake" would not hold, when I bounced up and down on the end of the swing-set leg.

 

[jim hardy]

The Volkswagen DIY paradigm lives on .. we see home built dune buggies, offroad racers, classic car aftermarket body replicas,
dragstrip machines,

the VW powered Evans Volksplane is a popular homebuilt designed around the Beetle engine..

The world needs a simple automobile like the Beetle.

old jim

 

[zoobyshoe]

Looking back, it may have been my VW, that got me interested in "engineering".

View attachment 104931

I'm guessing that I weighed about 100 lbs back when I was 16, and a ten foot long "cheater bar" would extrapolate to a 1000 foot-pounds of torque to get that stinking lug nut off.

The "stick shaped thing" was required, as the "parking brake" would not hold, when I bounced up and down on the end of the swing-set leg.

That rear hub nut is one of the things that refutes the meme that old Beetles are easy to work on. You can't do a thing to your rear brakes until you get it off, but most people break a succession if increasingly large breaker bars before they give up and get the special torque multiplier tool pictured in your photo.

The hub nut is supposed to be torqued to 217 ft lbs, but many shops overtorque it to get a space in the castellated nut to line up with a hole through the shaft for the large cotter pin that's supposed to prevent the nut from unscrewing itself (as if that would ever happen at that torque).

I finally got mine off with a cheaper dedicated tool:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BGDWTOK/?tag=pfamazon01-20

In principle, you stick it on the nut and wail on the other end with a sledge. In practice, you have to find some stout rod to guide the sledge blows to the tool because it doesn't stick out proud enough from the wheel to hit it with the sledge without also hitting the wheel. I still had to whack it very hard a surprising number of times before I saw any rotation at all.

It is not actually torqued up against the brake drum with that much torque. I figured out the threaded shaft is actually tapered and gets a bit larger in diameter as the nut gets further on. That's what you're actually fighting: a nut that's deliberately forced onto a shaft that's slightly too large in diameter for it.

 

[zoobyshoe]

The world needs a simple automobile like the Beetle.

It died because of smog requirements. They couldn't keep up the demand for cleaner and cleaner emissions and still have a simple car. So, they retired all the air cooled vehicles and concentrated on their already more complex liquid cooled lines.

The 'new beetles' are not Beetles at all, of course, they're liquid cooled cars wearing a kind of abstract Beetle costume.

 

[OmCheeto]

That's what you're actually fighting: a nut that's deliberately forced onto a shaft that's slightly too large in diameter for it.

Now you tell me...
I had assumed that it was just a bit "rusted".

ps. I transcribed notes, back when I was about 17, of the "important" things I'd learned before then, and one of them was an equation:

Hp = (((.01(1+VR/100))W)+(.0026CdAV^2))/375*V​

From the above equation, I just determined that my bug was putting out about 23 hp.

V: mph
R: rolling resistance
W: weight in lbs
CdA: drag coefficient x frontal area(ft^2)

 

[tionis]

VW good. Lada better.

 

[jtbell]

VW good. Lada better.

Better than the Trabi anyway.

 

[Mark44]

This brings back memories of my first bug, If you push start the thing in reverse the motor will start with the crank spinning backwards, giving you the same 4 speed reverse effect.

I don't see how this can possibly be true. In a 4-cycle engine, you have 1. Intake (piston moving down, intake valve open), 2. Compression (piston moving up, both valves closed), 3. Combustion (piston moving down, both valves still closed) 4. Exhaust (piston moving up, exhaust valve open)
If the motor is running the opposite direction, you'd have ignition happening before the air/fuel mix entered the combustion chamber, and everything else out of sequence as well.

I think you could run a 2-cycle engine backwards...

 

[phyzguy]

I hate to burst your bubble, but Wikipedia claims that the Toyota Corolla has outsold the VW Beetle by almost 2X.

 

[jim hardy]

I think you could run a 2-cycle engine backwards...

absolutely.
Ahhh nostalgia !
I well remember...

1960's Mercury 80 hp outboards that achieved reverse not by shifting gears but by retarding the spark past TDC and reversing the starter motor to restart the engine backward.
If everything was adjusted well it worked okay, but i saw more than one crash into the dock as an unaware owner tried in vain to start his cantankerous motor in reverse.

Also a worn-out Zundapp 125cc motorcycle that , while at idle, would sometimes misfire and reverse its direction. One learned quickly not to make show-off jackrabbit starts because it was unpredictable which direction you would go.

old jim

 

[zoobyshoe]

I hate to burst your bubble, but Wikipedia claims that the Toyota Corolla has outsold the VW Beetle by almost 2X.

There is no "Toyota Corolla." Toyota successively called a whole bunch of different cars the "Corolla," hence, the inflated sales figure. Same with the Ford Ranger truck. The air cooled Beetle, on the other hand, never got far enough from the original to be considered a different car.

 

[OmCheeto]

There is no "Toyota Corolla." Toyota successively called a whole bunch of different cars the "Corolla," hence, the inflated sales figure. Same with the Ford Ranger truck. The air cooled Beetle, on the other hand, never got far enough from the original to be considered a different car.

I can vouch for that. My second and third cars were '71 and '73 Corollas. Completely different engines.
And my last and current vehicle is a 2009 Ranger. When I bought it, some guy at work told me that they had Pinto engines, and Pinto engines overheated, and therefore my truck would overheat. I couldn't remember how long it had been since they'd built Pintos, but they seem to have fixed the overheating problem.

 

[OmCheeto]

...but i saw more than one crash into the dock as an unaware owner tried in vain to start his cantankerous motor in reverse.

Tell me about it...

...had I though my motor would reliably start, which it never quite did.
So I stayed on shore, with the 3 remaining people.

What happened in the next few minutes, is a bit difficult to comprehend, as, it was one of those, "You had to be there" moments.

Also a worn-out Zundapp 125cc motorcycle that , while at idle, would sometimes misfire and reverse its direction. One learned quickly not to make show-off jackrabbit starts because it was unpredictable which direction you would go.

old jim

That made me laugh out loud.

 

[OmCheeto]

But speaking of nightmares and Bugs, reminds me of an incident from 1984.
I had recently gotten out of the navy, and my sister, living in Mira Mesa, a burb of where Zoob lives, graciously let me crash on her couch, whilst I got my life back in gear.
To pay my way, I one day started to change the spark plugs in her VW.
Since she lived in a condo, someone came up and said; "You can't work on cars in the parking lot".
Om; "Do you mean, that I can't even change the spark plugs? This will only take about 15 minutes"
Jerk; "No."

So I drove her car to some dollar store auto-tune-up place. The name of which, I still kind of remember... (it ends in "elli", and the rest rhymed with "oon up assters"... right... grrrrr...)
Anyways, they cross-threaded the first plug, and had me sign a paper that said it wasn't their fault.
So I had to have the car TOWED to a real shop, where they had to do a small fortune of repairs.

Only once, did I later trust one of my vehicles to a dollar store auto shop.
They didn't disappoint me. They ruined the engine. (Twasn't a Bug, so I'll just share this part of THAT story... "muther [bleeping] [bleeping] [bleeping]. How on Earth can you screw up a muther [bleeping] [bleeping] [bleeping] radiator flush? Oh. Dollar Store. My bad. )

Needless to say, I've done all of my own oil changes for the last 20 years.

ps. I have at least three more Bug stories left, but I'm sure I've already shared them somewhere here at the forum.

 

[1oldman2]

I don't see how this can possibly be true. In a 4-cycle engine, you have 1. Intake (piston moving down, intake valve open), 2. Compression (piston moving up, both valves closed), 3. Combustion (piston moving down, both valves still closed) 4. Exhaust (piston moving up, exhaust valve open)
If the motor is running the opposite direction, you'd have ignition happening before the air/fuel mix entered the combustion chamber, and everything else out of sequence as well.

I think you could run a 2-cycle engine backwards...

Hi Mark, your absolutely correct in your post, I should have mentioned that my experience relates to an unfortunate attempt to "dump start " in reverse after my bug overheated on a steep grade. What was happening in my case as I found out sometime later was the engine was turning backwards although not actually running, as you pointed out the valve timing (as well as ignition timing) make the actual combustion process impossible. Maybe by replacing the muffler with a carb and doing some extreme timing adjustments it could be possible as the engine did turn backwards for some distance with no mechanical damage, however trying to run a gas four stroke with crank rotation reversed isn't recommended and I should have been clear about that in the previous post. The truth here is with a minor embellishment (the engine would start as opposed to turning backwards) as well as the omission of the fact that the engine didn't actually run for any length of time rather than just turn over I gave the impression that it was possible. I should have invoked a recent politicians term, (namely I "misspoke") but the fact is I was dressing up a situation for the sake of conversation concerning Om's post about "4 speeds reverse" (this is also why I'm not in politics). About the two stroke running reverse crank rotation this is true, Detroit diesels and many older outboard motors are known for this, although in the case of boat motors they have a habit of drawing water into the exhaust.
My sincere apologies, 1oldman.
( As you can see, sincere apologies also preclude a career in politics in my case)

 

[OmCheeto]

ps. Drove back from the coast this last Thursday.
On the way back, I saw a Bug, up in the sky.
I wanted to take a picture, but, I was tired, and on my way home.

So a few minutes ago, I saw something on FB, that reminded me of the image,

and decided that somebody should have posted a picture of that Bug on the internets by now.

Took me about 10 seconds.

 

[1oldman2]

ps. Drove back from the coast this last Thursday.
On the way back, I saw a Bug, up in the sky.
I wanted to take a picture, but, I was tired, and on my way home.

So a few minutes ago, I saw something on FB, that reminded me of the image,

View attachment 105002

and decided that somebody should have posted a picture of that Bug on the internets by now.

Took me about 10 seconds.

View attachment 105003

Is there any possible modification "bugs" haven't been subject to?

 

[jim hardy]

Needless to say, I've done all of my own oil changes for the last 20 years.

It's all in the local culture.

My nearby Walmart once left off my oil filler cap . Oil everywhere , it's a wonder i didn't have a fire. I complained to the manager who reviewed his videotape, apologized for the sloppy workmanship and gave me a gallon of oil and six cans of spray-on engine degreaser. He said he had to adjust some attitudes in his shop which satisfied me. I cleaned up the oil mess .
Next oil change(which i did myself) i found they'd stripped the threads on the drain pug too, fortunately on the male part you take out not the female threads in the engine. So i put an extra thick washer on the drain plug to make it engage an undamaged part of the threads.
A few months later while out in Idaho i risked another Walmart oil change.
What a difference - i chatted with the shop guys and found them attentive and intelligent. They told me "We found your drain plug threads stripped , i guess you put that extra washer on it to get by ? We put in a new one for you and torqued it to 12 foot-pounds."
I wrote a note to Walmart corporate that they had an exceptional automotive manager at that store whose methods they should study because he promotes excellence.

People live up to what is expected of them.

More bug stories ? Do go on.

 

[OmCheeto]

Is there any possible modification "bugs" haven't been subject to?

I seriously doubt it.

They were the "Lego toys" of a whole generation. Perhaps several generations.

As I recall, the '61 version's body was bolted to the, the...

What did they call that lower part of the car, before unibody construction?

 

[1oldman2]

[

I seriously doubt it.

They were the "Lego toys" of a whole generation. Perhaps several generations.

As I recall, the '61 version's body was bolted to the, the...

What did they call that lower part of the car, before unibody construction?

That would be the rusted out "floor pan" in my case.

 

[OmCheeto]

[

That would be the rusted out "floor pan" in my case.

Beings that salt was never used on the roads where I've lived, most of my "Flintstone" memories of seeing the road beneath my feet, were probably due to ancient 6 volt batteries...

Ahhh... The good old days...

 

[1oldman2]

ancient 6 volt batteries...

Ah jeez, you had to remind me of those sorry things. I won't even mention the heater/defroster issues, (I was fortunate enough to have the gas heater, my other bug owning friends were so envious of that in the winter time here.)

 

[EnumaElish]

My first vw was a diesel golf rabbit import. As a poor PhD student I acquired it with close to 200K miles and a deeply rusted body. It was a front-wheel drive. Within a year the body actually snapped in half right in the middle because of rust -- I actually drove a few miles with the rear wheels going pretty much in their own direction. But the engine was a die hard, if there ever was. I'm pretty sure I could transplant it to a new body and it would just keep going into a million miles. That'd have been the poor grad's version of the million mile club. That car made me respect diesel engines. I'm not saying I love diesel, but I respect the technology that makes them extremely sturdy, besides being very powerful.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I won't even mention the heater/defroster issues, (I was fortunate enough to have the gas heater, my other bug owning friends were so envious of that in the winter time here.)

Apparently the heating issue was because those genius German engineers had failed to account for the effect all that tight body sealing would have on the flow through of hot air. That is: the cabin was sealed so tightly, the fan couldn't push any of the heated air in. The recommendation was to crack a window when you opened a heating duct. HAHAHAHAHAHA!

It wasn't till 1970 or so that they put vents in behind the side rear windows. My bug is a '72 and the heater works great. (Not that it gets cold enough here to need it very often.)

 

[EnumaElish]

Apparently the heating issue was because those genius German engineers had failed to account for the effect all that tight body sealing would have on the flow through of hot air. That is: the cabin was sealed so tightly, the fan couldn't push any of the heated air in. The recommendation was to crack a window when you opened a heating duct. HAHAHAHAHAHA!

[off topic]
With due respect US engineering was never far behind. My university building had a modernist architecture consisting of all glass and steel, after the best of the sixties' & the early seventies' architectural style. The engineers must have figured during summer months under direct sunlight the building would turn into an oven. To counteract it, they built the most powerful A/C system this side of the arctic. With the cold on, the building would not be human habitable. But people worked there comfortably, thanks to human ingeniuty and cheap energy prices: they simply had the heat turned up until the temperature warmed to the goldilock zone. So there we were - the perfect summer weather anyone could design and money could buy. Those were the times.
[/off topic]

 

[jtbell]

That would be the rusted out "floor pan" in my case.

That was what did in my '74 Beetle, after eleven years in northern Ohio, Michigan, and upstate New York. Then I moved down South, but it was too late by then. A few years later I sold it to a mom-n-pop used car dealer / repair shop that specialized in Beetles, and bought a new Chevy Prizm (basically a rebadged Toyota Corolla).

 

[Mark44]

Needless to say, I've done all of my own oil changes for the last 20 years.

Me, too. I've heard enough stories like the one @jim hardy tells about one Walmart (in Arkansas?) cross-threading the oil pan drain plug, plus a couple other tales of "technicians" even forgetting to put the drain plug back in, that I do my own oil changes. This is in spite of the fact that I have two cars and four motorcycles (plus a riding lawn mower, generator, and pressure washer). I generally get oil by the case, in 50W for my two old motorcycles, 20-50 for the newer ones, and 5-20W for the two vehicles. I also like to keep several oil filters on hand.

 

[zoobyshoe]

As I recall, the '61 version's body was bolted to the, the...

What did they call that lower part of the car, before unibody construction?

That would be the rusted out "floor pan" in my case.

That was true for all the years from start to finish: the body was bolted to the floor pan(s), which, in turn, were bolted to the "spine" of the Beetle, usually called "the tunnel."

Here's a photographic documentation of a Beetle being dismantled just about piece by piece, for restoration:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=661006

His main complaint seems to be that the floor pans are rusted badly where they meet the body. In a lot of rust cases, though, it seems to be that people spilled the battery acid just in front of the rear seat on the passenger side, and it corroded from the inside out. Both the 6 and 12 volt systems had the battery under the rear seat.

The rear seat was cleverly designed of coconut fiber padding (which is good kindling) over a system of steel springs that had complete electrical continuity and enough resistance to glow red hot when you sat on the seat over the battery and shorted the + and - terminals. There was a little plastic guard over the positive terminal which was supposed to prevent this, but people would forget to put it back on. That seat became affectionately known as, "The Hot Seat," by some Beetle owners. There were a lot of incidents of sparking and smoldering.

 

[jim hardy]

Both the 6 and 12 volt systems had the battery under the rear seat.

Some of those 12 volt Beetles had positive ground. Always check before connecting an aftermarket stereo...