Why aren't UV lasers being used in warfare?

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SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the absence of ultraviolet (UV) lasers in modern warfare, despite their potential to cause serious eye damage, with references to a threshold of 5 mJ/cm² for blindness. Participants highlight that blinding laser weapons are explicitly banned under international treaties, including the 1995 Protocol on Blinding Laser Weapons, which has been signed by both Ukraine and the Russian Federation. The conversation also touches on historical attempts to use blinding technology in warfare, such as the Canal Defence Light tanks in WWII, and the challenges of deploying laser weapons effectively compared to traditional munitions.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of international military treaties, specifically the 1995 Protocol on Blinding Laser Weapons.
  • Knowledge of laser technology and its potential effects on human vision.
  • Familiarity with historical military strategies involving blinding tactics.
  • Awareness of current military technologies and their deployment challenges.
NEXT STEPS
  • Research the 1995 Protocol on Blinding Laser Weapons and its implications for modern warfare.
  • Explore the effects of laser exposure on human vision, focusing on specific thresholds for damage.
  • Investigate historical military technologies similar to the Canal Defence Light and their effectiveness.
  • Examine current advancements in laser weaponry and their potential applications in combat scenarios.
USEFUL FOR

This discussion is beneficial for military strategists, defense technology researchers, and policymakers interested in the ethical implications and technological advancements of weaponry in warfare.

Mike S.
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I've often seen it said that hobbyist-grade UV lasers, sold for a few hundred dollars to those brave enough to buy one, cause a serious risk of blindness. In the literature I see reference to eye damage from as little as 5 mJ/cm^2, which seems absurdly easy to attain. And every time I think of a Russian aircraft flying over Ukraine, or even an infantry lookout standing beside a vast rubble wilderness of empty windowframes, I can't understand why these weapons aren't being used on them. On the other hand of course, I'm glad (but equally mystified) why they're not being used against the Ukrainians or even the courageous protesters in Russia. Can someone explain how this infamous genie has been kept in the bottle all this time?
 
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Because (as I just learned after a quick Google) they are explicitly banned.

These 9 weapons are banned from modern warfare​

5. Blinding Laser Weapons​

This covers any laser designed to cause permanent blindness, but it does say that if the laser in question just happens to cause blindness, you can’t be held responsible for that.

More in-depth info.

(Apologies for the giant text. Copying and pasting - even via Notepad - doesn't remove font size data. And PF editor no longer seems to have a font size option.)
 
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DaveC426913 said:
(Apologies for the giant text. Copying and pasting - even via Notepad - doesn't remove font size data. And PF editor no longer seems to have a font size option.)
You can still switch to BB code.

Lasers are used all the time, just not for blinding.
 
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I'm surprised a treaty from 1995 already has so many signatories, and indeed Ukraine and Russian Federation are among them. I'm also still more than a little amazed people are actually sticking to it, when common violations such as the use of nerve gas are so much more technically difficult and so much easier to attribute to a violator.

P.S. The copy of Notepad I have, which appears to be part of "Windows 10 Pro" seems to clear font size. I've never seen one that didn't, but it does strike me that a program that clears unwanted formats / computer fingerprints / your faceprint and ID from the letters in a one-line URL would be seen as subversive. Did a later version crack down on it?

These 9 weapons are banned from modern warfare
5. Blinding Laser Weapons
 
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Mike S. said:
P.S. The copy of Notepad I have, which appears to be part of "Windows 10 Pro" seems to clear font size.

Typically when you do Ctrl-C and the marked text is formatted clipboard contains both TXT and RTF version, so that when you do Ctrl-V program that accepts the text can choose which version it will use. BUT: when you paste such a text into a notepad, which only deals with the unformatted TXT, formatting is lost, so when you the do Ctrl-C again clipboard contains only straight TXT. As long as all ini files are plain text Windows needs a tool to edit them without formatting, so we are safe.
 
Borek said:
Typically when you do Ctrl-C and the marked text is formatted clipboard contains both TXT and RTF version, so that when you do Ctrl-V program that accepts the text can choose which version it will use. BUT: when you paste such a text into a notepad, which only deals with the unformatted TXT, formatting is lost, so when you the do Ctrl-C again clipboard contains only straight TXT. As long as all ini files are plain text Windows needs a tool to edit them without formatting, so we are safe.
So why is the formatting preserved? In post 2, I
  1. Ctrl-C copied the text from a website, then
  2. Ctrl-V pasted it into Notepad, then
  3. Ctrl-A selected all, then
  4. Ctrl-C copied it back into the clipboard, and finally
  5. Ctrl-V pasted it into my post.
I would have expected it to copy only unformatted text from Notepad.
 
Why ask about UV lasers? They are more expensive, harder to build, lower power, less reliable, and easier to stop than the longer wavelengths. If I wanted a weapon like this I think I'd try Q-Switched YAG @ 1064nm; the easiest high power laser to build. Doubling it to get green might be a good choice too if you don't like IR.

Anyway, I can guarantee the Pentagon has thought about this (Star Wars, etc.). But your laser weapon needs to work better than bullets, bombs, and missiles to actually get deployed.
 
Some side commentary on secret weapons:

My dad once told me of a weapon he was trained on during WW2 which was a tank with a blinding carbon arc lamp and booming loudspeakers. It was an M3 Grant with these mods added. They were known as CDL tanks ie Canal Defense Light tank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_Defence_Light

and Camp Bouse where the training was done:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bouse

The plan was to use them during the D-Day invasion as a means of disorienting the enemy during night attacks. Tests indicated that the carbon arc lamp blinded soldiers enough that they saw the tank as zigzagging back and forth on an attack when in reality it was driving straight at them. Hence they couldn't shoot at the tank. Infantry was expected to advance along with the tanks.

The idea was scrapped though when it was discovered that ordinary welders' glass dimmed the light and made the infantry plainly visible, especially from the flanks. There was a great cartoon that someone made poking fun at the tank and war planning featuring Churchill taking a break while the tanks provided the lighting.

Churchill+CDL+draw+big.jpg


Curiously, I've never found a reference with the loudspeakers discussed so that may have been a red herring.

POSTSCRIPT: It wasn't loudspeakers but sirens. They used a 13 million candle power carbon arc lamp shining through a narrow vertical slit (protects the lamp from gunfire) and a loud siren to disorient and blind the enemy. Some WW2 historians felt it was a mistake not to have used this secret weapon more fully in combat as it may have shortened the war by several months.

The moral is if there's a simple means to defeat a secret weapon it will unlikely be deployed.
 
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jedishrfu said:
Curiously, I've never found a reference with the loudspeakers discussed so that may have been a red herring.
But interesting enough to get some funding and development. Still, it's hard to beat bullets when real deployment is considered. Same with lasers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_weapon
 
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DaveC426913 said:
So why is the formatting preserved? In post 2, I
  1. (...)
I would have expected it to copy only unformatted text from Notepad.
Never failed me*. My bet is something went wrong during the procedure and you pasted the original content. Notepad uses only CF_TEXT clipboard format (actually Windows doesn't have a predefined format for RTF, which is rather universally used for transferring formatted text).

*That is, apart from the moments some poorly written software forgets to CloseClipboard() and keeps it to itself. Then the clipboard doesn't get modified and you will be pasting the same content again and again, no matter what. As the clipboard is shared all programs systemwide are affected.
 
  • #11
And while this may be fake news:

Zelenskyy said "I don't need clipboards or a ride, I need more ammunition." or words to the effect.

So let's focus on the topic here.
 
  • #12
jedishrfu said:
And while this may be fake news:

Zelenskyy said "I don't need clipboards or a ride, I need more ammunition." or words to the effect.

So let's focus on the topic here.
It is strange that blinding laser is considered a step too far where as a shell landing among troops throwing out blinding shrapnel is not.

I suppose a line has to be drawn somewhere.
 
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  • #13
There's a Chinese base in Eritria I think it is just a few miles from a US base and the US has been accusing the Chinese of using blinding lasers against their craft there quite frequently if I recall correctly.
 
  • #14
I believe the Soviets tried using powerful searchlights to blind defenders during the battle of Seelow Heights. It backfired horrendously, but didn't matter as the war was all but decided by then.