Why be patriotic? What is the point?

[motai]

the Patriot Act.
Scuse me! that is the most un-patriotic bill ever passed. we have a bible banging electorate that believes they are on some crusade to save us and the world (no gay rights, no abortion choice, no drugs and if i brush with a SUSPECTED terrorist, i lose my rights).

War is not fun. it is brutality - barbarizism at their worst. you can't win wearing a white hat! let's try to live up to our ideals and seek a PATRIOTIC PEACEFUL SOLUTION to the next crisis.

Not since the suspension of the writ of Habeas Corpus by President Lincoln has there been a bill this bad. The Patriot Act is anything but patriotic to the United States.

olde drunk, it seems to me that as long as this administration is in power there will never be a patriotic peaceful solution... only war.

We will be doomed to repeat the past because the current administration does not understand past crisis. This current Iraq conflict sounds an awful lot like the War of 1812 to me, and its a shame that the lesson needs to be repeated.

 

[Royce]

My wife and I watched Mark Russell on PBS last weekend. He said that we knew Saadam had weapons of mass distruction. We still have the receipts.

There seem to be two main justifications for war, religion and nationalism. In truth it is all about economics, power and politics.

Is war ever justified? Yes, when in self defense or to curb unbridled armed aggresstion against an ally or weaker or undefended nation that asks the rest of the world for help.

 

[Adam]

Lawyers, Guns And Money
Written By Warren Zevon

-----------------------

Well, I went home with the waitress
The way I always do
How was I to know
She was with the Russians, too

I was gambling in Havana
I took a little risk
Send lawyers, guns and money
Dad, get me out of this

I'm the innocent bystander
Somehow I got stuck
Between the rock and the hard place
And I'm down on my luck
And I'm down on my luck
And I'm down on my luck

Now I'm hiding in Honduras
I'm a desperate man
Send lawyers, guns and money
The **** has hit the fan

 

[fulcrum]

Bertrand Russell once said " Patriotism is a need to kill and be killed for trivial reasons."

Anyone agrees with that?

Also I myself am of the opinion that I will try to elucidate. It is a bit of a little theory I have developed.

In trying to forge alliances and cooperate socially, (which is required for the furthering of the species) we need to become clannish and help each other out, divide labour and do stuff. In being clannish, we first agree on the locations at which we interact with others of the clan. Soon enough, we are happy to be at these locations. Then we decide that somehow, our locations are the only important ones around, because of the simple fact that they support us. When it has been drilled into our heads that we are actually important by the clan, we make no hesitations in supporting in the clan and hence justify our needs to become part of the group.

Conflict ensues with other clans which believe by themselves that they are somehow more important than you (or atleast you happen to think that they believe so) and then choose to show them that you are superior or hold a greater claim to whatever it is you believe to be important - whether it is your land, your resources, etc.

Partiotic struggles in the past have invariably been characterized by a glory of a nation scripted by its "propaganda" men, who could be anyone from a poet who wrote a masterpiece about the clan or some trivialties of it, it could be the great orator who waxed the truths at the heart of the country, who personified it and gave it a character, it could be a scientist who paved the advances in understanding and economy, it could be a military general who won a conflict for the nation...

These clannish behaviours are harnessed in a much larger scale by national politics - a political setup which encumbers upon unknown masses the decisions of their polity and such. Sometimes these masses are forced to concur to the law and sometimes they are given "freedom" to choose. Nationalism an patriotism seem merely a usage of propaganda to effect a polity favourable to some cause. As long as the cause is decided well, I guess things should be okay. But it is when there is too much free will or too much conformism that there is inevitable an unstable situation.

Of course, you should choose whether or not to be patriotic. Like someone else on the thread said, to objectively concur to the policies/matters of a country is a good thing to do. Blind patriotism is dangerous, and blind leaders with patriots under them can potentially do more harm to their nation unwittingly than a psychopath can to his own people. (This is of course because the conflict remains inside the group in the latter case and the conflict is taken outside in the former.)

So patriotism must be chosen carefully - whether you choose to be a patriot or not must depend on everything about your country in relation to others'. Just blindly liking your country is not a fine way to go about it. What do you think?

Also, I have another question - I live in India, and I find it most surprising that a democracy of this size can exist with so much diversity of people. It is something which surprises me each time I think about it and I think there is a kind of balance which is unattainable in some other countries. What are your theories on this? Why do you think it works well at all here? I am asking this because my perspective will not allow me to explain this well enough...I find that this is a reason I like this country, even as I hate it for a lot more. Am I justified, you think?

Thanks for any replies/comments.

 

[Kerrie]

great thread right before July 4th...

can patriotism be defined also has one being grateful for living in a country that allows more opportunities for indivdiuals then most countries? i am grateful to live in a country that allows free speech, is one of the more wealthy countries in this world, and has many more opportunities (self employment, college, etc) then others. america has it's faults, but don't many countries as well?

 

[BoulderHead]

Patriotism, nationalism, tribalism.
I have found some relation exists between such things and cannon fodder.

 

[Dissident Dan]

great thread right before July 4th...

can patriotism be defined also has one being grateful for living in a country that allows more opportunities for indivdiuals then most countries? i am grateful to live in a country that allows free speech, is one of the more wealthy countries in this world, and has many more opportunities (self employment, college, etc) then others. america has it's faults, but don't many countries as well?

I don't think so. I have never heard of patriotism referred to as being grateful.

 

[cragwolf]

I find patriotism to be a primitive emotion, a subset of follow-the-herd behaviour that has caused such misery in human history. The only patriotism I have is for nice people, for people who treat other people with kindness and respect, no matter what country they come from. I need to find a flag for that.

 

[loseyourname]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I consider myself a fairly patriotic American for the simple reason that I believe in the ideals of our founding fathers (their stated ideals, not the ones they actually lived). For the most part, this results in my going against the herd of modern US politics.

 

[Entropy]

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same in any country."


-Hermann Goering (1893 - 1946)
Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, President of the Reichstag, Prime Minister of Prussia and Hitler's designated successor

The second in command of the Third Reich

Need I say more?


Learn to love your country less, and learn to love your enemy more, isn't he the one that needs it the most?

 

[cragwolf]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I consider myself a fairly patriotic American for the simple reason that I believe in the ideals of our founding fathers (their stated ideals, not the ones they actually lived).

So you have patriotism for an idea, and not something that actually exists.

 

[Concept]

Kurt Vonnegut perfectly summed up my feelings on patriotism in Mother Night:

"You hate America, don't you?" she said.
"That would be as silly as loving it," I said. "It's impossible for me to get emotional about it, because real estate doesn't interest me. It's no doubt a great flaw in my personality, but I can't think in terms of boundaries. Those imaginary lines are as unreal to me as elves and pixies. I can't believe that they mark the end or the beginning of anything of real concern to the human soul. Virtues and vices, pleasures and pains cross boundaries at will."

 

[russ_watters]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I consider myself a fairly patriotic American for the simple reason that I believe in the ideals of our founding fathers (their stated ideals, not the ones they actually lived).

That is, in a nutshell, the definition of patriotism.

Kurt Vonnegut perfectly summed up my feelings on patriotism in Mother Night:

"You hate America, don't you?" she said.
"That would be as silly as loving it," I said. "It's impossible for me to get emotional about it, because real estate doesn't interest me. It's no doubt a great flaw in my personality, but I can't think in terms of boundaries. Those imaginary lines are as unreal to me as elves and pixies. I can't believe that they mark the end or the beginning of anything of real concern to the human soul. Virtues and vices, pleasures and pains cross boundaries at will."

And Kurt Vonnegut is demonstrating that he doesn't understand patriotism (or nationalism - though the two are often lumped together) at all. Its not ever about a piece of land (not even "Manifest Destiny" or "Liebensraum" was about the land). The reason patriotic Americans are patriotic is because of the Constiution, first and foremost.

 

[Concept]

Okay, so hypothetically, let's say there was another revolution in the US, a new government ruled, and had a new constitution with different laws. Would a person then have to believe in those ideas to be considered patriotic?

 

[Entropy]

Really during the American Revolution those who sided with America where called "patriots" and those who sided with Britain where called "loyalists." Don't those sound a little too similar?

 

[russ_watters]

Okay, so hypothetically, let's say there was another revolution in the US, a new government ruled, and had a new constitution with different laws. Would a person then have to believe in those ideas to be considered patriotic?

Certainly. Exactly like a current German patriot must reject Naziism. You can't very well be patriotic toward something that doesn't exist.

Really during the American Revolution those who sided with America where called "patriots" and those who sided with Britain where called "loyalists." Don't those sound a little too similar?

Yes, but there is an important historical context: at the time, America was semi-independent colonies and developed separately from England. The ideals born of the American revolution are American ideals and thus those who believe in them are American patriots.

 

[Concept]

Certainly. Exactly like a current German patriot must reject Naziism. You can't very well be patriotic toward something that doesn't exist.

but a German living under Nazi Germany would have been unpatriotic for being against it?

 

[Njorl]

but a German living under Nazi Germany would have been unpatriotic for being against it?

Not necessarily. First, most Germans were not Nazis. If there is some entity more genuinely representitive of the nation than the government, it is not unpatriotic to support that entity. The men who tried to assassinate Hitler did so because they believed he was destroying Germany. They acted against the state, but for the nation. There is a difference between nations and states. Patriotism is generally toward the nation.

Njorl

 

[Concept]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I consider myself a fairly patriotic American for the simple reason that I believe in the ideals of our founding fathers (their stated ideals, not the ones they actually lived). For the most part, this results in my going against the herd of modern US politics.

Not necessarily. First, most Germans were not Nazis. If there is some entity more genuinely representitive of the nation than the government, it is not unpatriotic to support that entity. The men who tried to assassinate Hitler did so because they believed he was destroying Germany. They acted against the state, but for the nation. There is a difference between nations and states. Patriotism is generally toward the nation.

These two ideas are contradictory then. As loseyourname pointed out, the majority of Americans don't fully support the ideals of the founders. Especially after 9/11, the majority supported some encroachment on civil liberties that the founders would have completely opposed. If you're not talking about majority opinion when you refer to "the entity," then what are you referring to? If you are referring to majority opinion, then cragwolf was correct in asserting that patriotism is nothing more than "follow-the-herd" mentality. If you're talking about "the entity" as what a person perceives as the best interests of the people, then what is and isn't patriotic is reduced to total subjectivity.

Also, if you agree with the idea of being patriotic because you agree with the ideas the country was founded on, would you be equally patriotic to another country founded on the same ideas?

 

[russ_watters]

but a German living under Nazi Germany would have been unpatriotic for being against it?

Yes, but with the caveat that the Nazi governemnt siezed power illegally. They could still consider themselves patriots toward the rightful government of Germany. (Njorl's post)

These two ideas are contradictory then. As loseyourname pointed out, the majority of Americans don't fully support the ideals of the founders.

What does "fully support" mean? The US constitution is relatively unique in that it is designed to evolve. The fundamental concepts, including the concept of trading freedom for safety, haven't changed.

Also, if you agree with the idea of being patriotic because you agree with the ideas the country was founded on, would you be equally patriotic to another country founded on the same ideas?

Maybe if you have dual citizenship, but the definition is quite clear that patriotism is what you feel towards your country.

 

[Njorl]

I don't think l.y.n. and I are necessarily contradicting each other.

I don't think national identity is defined by the opinions of a plurality of those alive today. It is defined instead, by the journey that brought those people to the beliefs they have. Our national identity is defined by the founding fathers stated beliefs. It is also defined by the enslavement of millions of people. It is also defined by the war that freed those people, and the repurcussions of that war. It is defined by the acceptance of immigrants from all over the world to live as equals. It is the brutal economic exploitation of those immigrants, and their struggle for genuine democratic power.

Patriotism is not a love just for the country, or it's government or it's people. It is not really love at all. It is an embrace of the national heritage as a whole.

So, rather than "My country, right or wrong!" it is, "My nation, warts and all."

It is entirely possible for two patriots to disagree on the merits of a course of action which their country's government is taking.

Njorl

 

[BoulderHead]

I don’t mind someone holding to their own view of patriotism, or even that a given definition is not commonly found in a dictionary. While I could suggest a common definition would be useful for discussion I think patriotism means different things to different people, so it’s not a real issue to me that disagreement takes place. What I do take issue with is claiming to hold the true definition, especially so if said definition is uncommon. This is what I see at least two posters doing in this thread and the reason it is bankrupt is that you are essentially denying to others the same privilege you allow yourself.

 

[russ_watters]

So, rather than "My country, right or wrong!" it is, "My nation, warts and all."

Minor nitpick (we're pretty much in agreement), but don't those two mean the same thing?

What I do take issue with is claiming to hold the true definition, especially so if said definition is uncommon. This is what I see at least two posters doing in this thread and the reason it is bankrupt is that you are essentially denying to others the same privilege you allow yourself.

And I take issue with the opposite (hmm...reading again, maybe its not the opposite of what you are saying): people distorting or obfuscating the definition for their own nefarious purposes. Most commonly, this means equating patriotism with nationalism.

 

[BoulderHead]

Russ,
Do we see the statements posted by Njorl in a similar vien;

So, rather than "My country, right or wrong!" it is, "My nation, warts and all."

To me, this is Nationalism, not Patriotism.

 

[Gökhan]

Hi,

I think it dishonours and caricatures this forum that the concept of patriotism gets so much attention here...
Especially regarding history, without much philosophical strain, we should come to the recognition that patriotism has totally disqualified for getting any serious intellectual attention...

 

[russ_watters]

To me, this is Nationalism, not Patriotism.

What difference (if any) do you consider there to be between patriotism and nationalism and how exactly do you interpret his quotes?

 

[BoulderHead]

I asked you first, haha!

What difference (if any) do you consider there to be between patriotism and nationalism and how exactly do you interpret his quotes?

Ok, this will be my last post until I'm not sure when, and my mind is not clear but here goes anyway. Remember saying this;

….but don't those two mean the same thing?

Well, I’m of similar mind with you here because this was my reaction to that statement also. This is ‘my country, blah blah blah…’ (no offence to Njorl meant with those blahs, btw) and this to me is more to do with nationalism than patriotism. Like you, Russ, I tie patriotism to ideals. Unlike you, I do not boldly proclaim to hold the ‘true’ definition, but merely state to hold my own definition (knowing it isn't to be found in any dictionary ).
Now, the connection between ideals and the Government, State, Nation, or whatever else you care to tie it to is still unanswered. It may be that we will not be able to agree on the connection, I do not yet know. But I will say this much about my definition/view on Patriotism; I hold it to be a set of ideals first and foremost. There is a connection of said ideals to a nation, but without any doubt if the nation should divorce itself from these ideals due to irreconcilable differences, hehe, I hold the patriot must divorce (their allegiance) from that nation. I do not believe a nationalist would follow foot, though I also believe a nationalist is more than an individual who simply believes in; “my country right or wrong”.
For someone who believes in ideals I do not see an allowance, other than wishful thinking, for allegiance to a nation which does not share them. What I’m inclined to see is a fork in the road at this point, where the patriot becomes merely an individual with his ideals or else becomes a nationalist pretending to be a patriot. But, I am also prepared to consider arguments for a nationless patriot, haha.

 

[Njorl]

I think there is a difference between "right or wrong" and "warts and all". The difference lies in the context in which they were originally used.

"My country right or wrong" means I will support my country in doing the wrong thing if my country decides to do the wrong thing. That is nationalism.

"Warts and all" merely implies an acceptance of what is. It does not imply approval of the "warts". If my country chooses to do wrong, I will oppose that wrong, but still be proud to be part of my country, despite the wrong. I will not deny that the wrong exists, or that it is wrong. That is patriotism.

Njorl

 

[russ_watters]

Unlike you, I do not boldly proclaim to hold the ‘true’ definition, but merely state to hold my own definition (knowing it isn't to be found in any dictionary ).

Maybe I'm just simple, but I don't consider it to be bold (or profound) to believe you can find a reasonable definition in a dictionary.

"My country right or wrong" means I will support my country in doing the wrong thing if my country decides to do the wrong thing. That is nationalism.

I'd heard the quote before, but I guess I wasn't aware of the context.

edit: Found the context. HERE is an interesting link. But I'm still not sure what is meant by the quote.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/wftwarch.pl?010504 .

 

[loseyourname]

There is a connection of said ideals to a nation, but without any doubt if the nation should divorce itself from these ideals due to irreconcilable differences, hehe, I hold the patriot must divorce (their allegiance) from that nation. I do not believe a nationalist would follow foot, though I also believe a nationalist is more than an individual who simply believes in; “my country right or wrong”. For someone who believes in ideals I do not see an allowance, other than wishful thinking, for allegiance to a nation which does not share them.

I don't see it this way at all. When my nation betrays the ideals on which it was founded, I do not support the men responsible, but I continue to love and support the nation itself and do whatever I can to bring the government back in line with those ideals that I hold dear.