Why be patriotic? What is the point?

[BoulderHead]

Patriotism, nationalism, tribalism.
I have found some relation exists between such things and cannon fodder.

 

[Dissident Dan]

great thread right before July 4th...

can patriotism be defined also has one being grateful for living in a country that allows more opportunities for indivdiuals then most countries? i am grateful to live in a country that allows free speech, is one of the more wealthy countries in this world, and has many more opportunities (self employment, college, etc) then others. america has it's faults, but don't many countries as well?

I don't think so. I have never heard of patriotism referred to as being grateful.

 

[cragwolf]

I find patriotism to be a primitive emotion, a subset of follow-the-herd behaviour that has caused such misery in human history. The only patriotism I have is for nice people, for people who treat other people with kindness and respect, no matter what country they come from. I need to find a flag for that.

 

[loseyourname]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I consider myself a fairly patriotic American for the simple reason that I believe in the ideals of our founding fathers (their stated ideals, not the ones they actually lived). For the most part, this results in my going against the herd of modern US politics.

 

[Entropy]

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same in any country."


-Hermann Goering (1893 - 1946)
Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, President of the Reichstag, Prime Minister of Prussia and Hitler's designated successor

The second in command of the Third Reich

Need I say more?


Learn to love your country less, and learn to love your enemy more, isn't he the one that needs it the most?

 

[cragwolf]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I consider myself a fairly patriotic American for the simple reason that I believe in the ideals of our founding fathers (their stated ideals, not the ones they actually lived).

So you have patriotism for an idea, and not something that actually exists.

 

[Concept]

Kurt Vonnegut perfectly summed up my feelings on patriotism in Mother Night:

"You hate America, don't you?" she said.
"That would be as silly as loving it," I said. "It's impossible for me to get emotional about it, because real estate doesn't interest me. It's no doubt a great flaw in my personality, but I can't think in terms of boundaries. Those imaginary lines are as unreal to me as elves and pixies. I can't believe that they mark the end or the beginning of anything of real concern to the human soul. Virtues and vices, pleasures and pains cross boundaries at will."

 

[russ_watters]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I consider myself a fairly patriotic American for the simple reason that I believe in the ideals of our founding fathers (their stated ideals, not the ones they actually lived).

That is, in a nutshell, the definition of patriotism.

Kurt Vonnegut perfectly summed up my feelings on patriotism in Mother Night:

"You hate America, don't you?" she said.
"That would be as silly as loving it," I said. "It's impossible for me to get emotional about it, because real estate doesn't interest me. It's no doubt a great flaw in my personality, but I can't think in terms of boundaries. Those imaginary lines are as unreal to me as elves and pixies. I can't believe that they mark the end or the beginning of anything of real concern to the human soul. Virtues and vices, pleasures and pains cross boundaries at will."

And Kurt Vonnegut is demonstrating that he doesn't understand patriotism (or nationalism - though the two are often lumped together) at all. Its not ever about a piece of land (not even "Manifest Destiny" or "Liebensraum" was about the land). The reason patriotic Americans are patriotic is because of the Constiution, first and foremost.

 

[Concept]

Okay, so hypothetically, let's say there was another revolution in the US, a new government ruled, and had a new constitution with different laws. Would a person then have to believe in those ideas to be considered patriotic?

 

[Entropy]

Really during the American Revolution those who sided with America where called "patriots" and those who sided with Britain where called "loyalists." Don't those sound a little too similar?

 

[russ_watters]

Okay, so hypothetically, let's say there was another revolution in the US, a new government ruled, and had a new constitution with different laws. Would a person then have to believe in those ideas to be considered patriotic?

Certainly. Exactly like a current German patriot must reject Naziism. You can't very well be patriotic toward something that doesn't exist.

Really during the American Revolution those who sided with America where called "patriots" and those who sided with Britain where called "loyalists." Don't those sound a little too similar?

Yes, but there is an important historical context: at the time, America was semi-independent colonies and developed separately from England. The ideals born of the American revolution are American ideals and thus those who believe in them are American patriots.

 

[Concept]

Certainly. Exactly like a current German patriot must reject Naziism. You can't very well be patriotic toward something that doesn't exist.

but a German living under Nazi Germany would have been unpatriotic for being against it?

 

[Njorl]

but a German living under Nazi Germany would have been unpatriotic for being against it?

Not necessarily. First, most Germans were not Nazis. If there is some entity more genuinely representitive of the nation than the government, it is not unpatriotic to support that entity. The men who tried to assassinate Hitler did so because they believed he was destroying Germany. They acted against the state, but for the nation. There is a difference between nations and states. Patriotism is generally toward the nation.

Njorl

 

[Concept]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I consider myself a fairly patriotic American for the simple reason that I believe in the ideals of our founding fathers (their stated ideals, not the ones they actually lived). For the most part, this results in my going against the herd of modern US politics.

Not necessarily. First, most Germans were not Nazis. If there is some entity more genuinely representitive of the nation than the government, it is not unpatriotic to support that entity. The men who tried to assassinate Hitler did so because they believed he was destroying Germany. They acted against the state, but for the nation. There is a difference between nations and states. Patriotism is generally toward the nation.

These two ideas are contradictory then. As loseyourname pointed out, the majority of Americans don't fully support the ideals of the founders. Especially after 9/11, the majority supported some encroachment on civil liberties that the founders would have completely opposed. If you're not talking about majority opinion when you refer to "the entity," then what are you referring to? If you are referring to majority opinion, then cragwolf was correct in asserting that patriotism is nothing more than "follow-the-herd" mentality. If you're talking about "the entity" as what a person perceives as the best interests of the people, then what is and isn't patriotic is reduced to total subjectivity.

Also, if you agree with the idea of being patriotic because you agree with the ideas the country was founded on, would you be equally patriotic to another country founded on the same ideas?

 

[russ_watters]

but a German living under Nazi Germany would have been unpatriotic for being against it?

Yes, but with the caveat that the Nazi governemnt siezed power illegally. They could still consider themselves patriots toward the rightful government of Germany. (Njorl's post)

These two ideas are contradictory then. As loseyourname pointed out, the majority of Americans don't fully support the ideals of the founders.

What does "fully support" mean? The US constitution is relatively unique in that it is designed to evolve. The fundamental concepts, including the concept of trading freedom for safety, haven't changed.

Also, if you agree with the idea of being patriotic because you agree with the ideas the country was founded on, would you be equally patriotic to another country founded on the same ideas?

Maybe if you have dual citizenship, but the definition is quite clear that patriotism is what you feel towards your country.

 

[Njorl]

I don't think l.y.n. and I are necessarily contradicting each other.

I don't think national identity is defined by the opinions of a plurality of those alive today. It is defined instead, by the journey that brought those people to the beliefs they have. Our national identity is defined by the founding fathers stated beliefs. It is also defined by the enslavement of millions of people. It is also defined by the war that freed those people, and the repurcussions of that war. It is defined by the acceptance of immigrants from all over the world to live as equals. It is the brutal economic exploitation of those immigrants, and their struggle for genuine democratic power.

Patriotism is not a love just for the country, or it's government or it's people. It is not really love at all. It is an embrace of the national heritage as a whole.

So, rather than "My country, right or wrong!" it is, "My nation, warts and all."

It is entirely possible for two patriots to disagree on the merits of a course of action which their country's government is taking.

Njorl

 

[BoulderHead]

I don’t mind someone holding to their own view of patriotism, or even that a given definition is not commonly found in a dictionary. While I could suggest a common definition would be useful for discussion I think patriotism means different things to different people, so it’s not a real issue to me that disagreement takes place. What I do take issue with is claiming to hold the true definition, especially so if said definition is uncommon. This is what I see at least two posters doing in this thread and the reason it is bankrupt is that you are essentially denying to others the same privilege you allow yourself.

 

[russ_watters]

So, rather than "My country, right or wrong!" it is, "My nation, warts and all."

Minor nitpick (we're pretty much in agreement), but don't those two mean the same thing?

What I do take issue with is claiming to hold the true definition, especially so if said definition is uncommon. This is what I see at least two posters doing in this thread and the reason it is bankrupt is that you are essentially denying to others the same privilege you allow yourself.

And I take issue with the opposite (hmm...reading again, maybe its not the opposite of what you are saying): people distorting or obfuscating the definition for their own nefarious purposes. Most commonly, this means equating patriotism with nationalism.

 

[BoulderHead]

Russ,
Do we see the statements posted by Njorl in a similar vien;

So, rather than "My country, right or wrong!" it is, "My nation, warts and all."

To me, this is Nationalism, not Patriotism.

 

[Gökhan]

Hi,

I think it dishonours and caricatures this forum that the concept of patriotism gets so much attention here...
Especially regarding history, without much philosophical strain, we should come to the recognition that patriotism has totally disqualified for getting any serious intellectual attention...

 

[russ_watters]

To me, this is Nationalism, not Patriotism.

What difference (if any) do you consider there to be between patriotism and nationalism and how exactly do you interpret his quotes?

 

[BoulderHead]

I asked you first, haha!

What difference (if any) do you consider there to be between patriotism and nationalism and how exactly do you interpret his quotes?

Ok, this will be my last post until I'm not sure when, and my mind is not clear but here goes anyway. Remember saying this;

….but don't those two mean the same thing?

Well, I’m of similar mind with you here because this was my reaction to that statement also. This is ‘my country, blah blah blah…’ (no offence to Njorl meant with those blahs, btw) and this to me is more to do with nationalism than patriotism. Like you, Russ, I tie patriotism to ideals. Unlike you, I do not boldly proclaim to hold the ‘true’ definition, but merely state to hold my own definition (knowing it isn't to be found in any dictionary ).
Now, the connection between ideals and the Government, State, Nation, or whatever else you care to tie it to is still unanswered. It may be that we will not be able to agree on the connection, I do not yet know. But I will say this much about my definition/view on Patriotism; I hold it to be a set of ideals first and foremost. There is a connection of said ideals to a nation, but without any doubt if the nation should divorce itself from these ideals due to irreconcilable differences, hehe, I hold the patriot must divorce (their allegiance) from that nation. I do not believe a nationalist would follow foot, though I also believe a nationalist is more than an individual who simply believes in; “my country right or wrong”.
For someone who believes in ideals I do not see an allowance, other than wishful thinking, for allegiance to a nation which does not share them. What I’m inclined to see is a fork in the road at this point, where the patriot becomes merely an individual with his ideals or else becomes a nationalist pretending to be a patriot. But, I am also prepared to consider arguments for a nationless patriot, haha.

 

[Njorl]

I think there is a difference between "right or wrong" and "warts and all". The difference lies in the context in which they were originally used.

"My country right or wrong" means I will support my country in doing the wrong thing if my country decides to do the wrong thing. That is nationalism.

"Warts and all" merely implies an acceptance of what is. It does not imply approval of the "warts". If my country chooses to do wrong, I will oppose that wrong, but still be proud to be part of my country, despite the wrong. I will not deny that the wrong exists, or that it is wrong. That is patriotism.

Njorl

 

[russ_watters]

Unlike you, I do not boldly proclaim to hold the ‘true’ definition, but merely state to hold my own definition (knowing it isn't to be found in any dictionary ).

Maybe I'm just simple, but I don't consider it to be bold (or profound) to believe you can find a reasonable definition in a dictionary.

"My country right or wrong" means I will support my country in doing the wrong thing if my country decides to do the wrong thing. That is nationalism.

I'd heard the quote before, but I guess I wasn't aware of the context.

edit: Found the context. HERE is an interesting link. But I'm still not sure what is meant by the quote.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/wftwarch.pl?010504 .

 

[loseyourname]

There is a connection of said ideals to a nation, but without any doubt if the nation should divorce itself from these ideals due to irreconcilable differences, hehe, I hold the patriot must divorce (their allegiance) from that nation. I do not believe a nationalist would follow foot, though I also believe a nationalist is more than an individual who simply believes in; “my country right or wrong”. For someone who believes in ideals I do not see an allowance, other than wishful thinking, for allegiance to a nation which does not share them.

I don't see it this way at all. When my nation betrays the ideals on which it was founded, I do not support the men responsible, but I continue to love and support the nation itself and do whatever I can to bring the government back in line with those ideals that I hold dear.

 

[russ_watters]

I don't see it this way at all. When my nation betrays the ideals on which it was founded, I do not support the men responsible, but I continue to love and support the nation itself and do whatever I can to bring the government back in line with those ideals that I hold dear.

I agree with this interpretation of patriotism and its why I'm still not sure how to read the Decatur quote. I think the Decatur quote could fit that. The full quote:

"Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong."

Decatur acknowledges the possibility that the country could be wrong. Could a nationalist do that? And does "...our country, right or wrong" mean he still loves his country when its wrong or still follows the country when its wrong? Still loving it when its wrong is compatible with patriotism - still following it is not.

I think it could be interpreted either way.

 

[BoulderHead]

Maybe I'm just simple, but I don't consider it to be bold (or profound) to believe you can find a reasonable definition in a dictionary.

In that case I ask you to show a dictionary definition supporting your particular brand of patriotism and I may concede the point. If not, you must concede.

 

[BoulderHead]

I don't see it this way at all. When my nation betrays the ideals on which it was founded, I do not support the men responsible, but I continue to love and support the nation itself and do whatever I can to bring the government back in line with those ideals that I hold dear.

Note that I did not say it merely 'betrayed'. I said it divorced itself from them with irreconcilable differences. Also, I expressed 'wishful thinking' to describe those beating a dead horse. If there is going to be any substantial difference between a patriot and a nationalist then I have indicated where I draw the line. Your willingness to continue loving the nation itself even after it has divorced itself from the ideals you hold making it worthy of support is, for all practical purposes, little more than nationalism. Nationalists themselves are not without ideals, you know.

 

[russ_watters]

In that case I ask you to show a dictionary definition supporting your particular brand of patriotism and I may concede the point. If not, you must concede.

Patriotism

Love of and devotion to one's country.

[and]

Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country

But here, of course, is where the problems arise: people disagree on what it means to love and be devoted to your country. IMO, that's mostly a problem with people not learning ethics/morality. Most people think devotion means never questioning. In fact, most people think the military is designed that way: blindly follow orders. The reality (today anyway) is precisely the opposite. I was taught it is your duty to point out the errors of your peers so they can fix them (in boot camp, it was driven home by the simplistic act of inspecting your roommate's uniform and helping him fix flaws before leaving the room).

So for patriotism, "devotion" does not mean blindly following your country, it means you are duty bound to help fix the flaws in your country. The old adage "if you don't vote, you can't complain" I take a step further: if you don't vote, you're being unpatriotic.

 

[russ_watters]

Your willingness to continue loving the nation itself even after it has divorced itself from the ideals you hold making it worthy of support is, for all practical purposes, little more than nationalism.

Someone brought up the drunken mother interpretation of the Decatur quote before. Flip it around: when you screwed up as a kid and your mother punished you, did she ever tell you she didn't love you anymore? Why or why not?

edit: ugh, I'm getting annoyed, so I'll answer it for you: Of course not! Its something our society has forgotten and its a big problem (witness the 50% divorce rate) - love means never giving up.

 

[BoulderHead]

Patriotism
But here, of course, is where the problems arise: people disagree on what it means to love and be devoted to your country. IMO, that's mostly a problem with people not learning ethics/morality. Most people think devotion means never questioning. In fact, most people think the military is designed that way: blindly follow orders. The reality (today anyway) is precisely the opposite. I was taught it is your duty to point out the errors of your peers so they can fix them (in boot camp, it was driven home by the simplistic act of inspecting your roommate's uniform and helping him fix flaws before leaving the room).

So for patriotism, "devotion" does not mean blindly following your country, it means you are duty bound to help fix the flaws in your country. The old adage "if you don't vote, you can't complain" I take a step further: if you don't vote, you're being unpatriotic.

Well, it can be seen that no mention of ideals is directly given, and that is exactly my point. You are in effect arguing to have the correct definition of 'love' in this particular case, which is a sideways approach. The truth even in this case is that you are not qualified to judge for others the definition of love.

 

[BoulderHead]

Someone brought up the drunken mother interpretation of the Decatur quote before. Flip it around: when you screwed up as a kid and your mother punished you, did she ever tell you she didn't love you anymore? Why or why not?

edit: ugh, I'm getting annoyed, so I'll answer it for you: Of course not! Its something our society has forgotten and its a big problem (witness the 50% divorce rate) - love means never giving up.

The argument for patriotism is now being rooted in emotions like love, instead of ideals.

 

[BoulderHead]

I say if no substantial difference is to exist between patriotism and nationalism, then the matter renders to little more than word play. Too much emotion, too little substance.

 

[russ_watters]

The argument for patriotism is now being rooted in emotions like love, instead of ideals. [separate post]

Well, it can be seen that no mention of ideals is directly given, and that is exactly my point. You are in effect arguing to have the correct definition of 'love' in this particular case, which is a sideways approach. The truth even in this case is that you are not qualified to judge for others the definition of love.

You're missing the point - it has always been love/devotion (though only recently a question over the definition of love/devotion). The question from the beginning was love/devotion to what? This whole discussion from the beginning of where it turned to patriotism can be boiled down to 'what is a country? - and what does it mean to love it?' Scroll back and re-read the Kurt Vonnegut quote and my response (page 3).

I say if no substantial difference is to exist between patriotism and nationalism, then the matter renders to little more than word play. [emphasis added]

Maybe I'm missing something now, but this is basically a conversation about a definition. How could it not be "word play"?

 

[russ_watters]

Might as well bring this out: Nationalism:

1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

With 3 definitions, nationalism is more complicated that patriotism, yet ironically (but to me, unsurprisingly) patriotism is where all the arguments are. As I said before, it is IMO, because of a desire to mis-label patriotism as nationalism to serve a political end.